Indiana Basketball 2023-24

nwwarrior09 said:
I haven't been able to pay too much attention, but it kind of seems like the main problem with IU is somewhere in-between the construction of the roster and the rotation? I saw this the other day and it really jumped out at me.

IU IMO does have talent and I thought they'd be better. Woodson might be one of a few Big Ten coaches at big brand or resource rich schools that's really underperforming.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1753860609584595011
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If you are a guard, or really even a forward today, you're expected to handle the ball. The true PG is a luxury. Many teams don't have one. IU has two PG's in Xavier Johnson and Gabe Cupps. Johnson has been in and out of the lineup due to injury and suspension. He's good when he's good and bad when he's bad. Cupps to me has been disappointing, and that gets Ohio people chippy because he's their boy. I just hoped he'd be able to score a little more. It's basically 4 on 5 when he's on the floor, he rarely even looks for shots.

Roster construction. Yes. It's probably difficult to manage the roster these days because players come and go. Trey Galloway has become an impromptu PG over the years because he can handle the ball some and create some. IU's major flaw is they just don't have shooters, which is really hard to imagine in this day and age. To their credit, they kind of know who they are. With Ware and Reneau, the pound it inside incessantly. This is great if you're consistent at it. Ware is all over the map. He'll go 15 points 15 rebounds one game, and then have a 6/8 game. I'm not sure what's up with the rotation. From the start of the season, Ware, Reneau and Galloway all go 35+ minutes unless they are in foul trouble or injured. There are guys off the bench who'll play 8-10 minutes one game, then not play for 2-3 games. My confidence in Mike Woodson being the coach long term at IU is waning. His in game adjustments are slow and messy and I'm not sure what the assistants do. Woodson was a great Hoosier and many fans pick, but winning is what keeps a job and IU being in the middle to the bottom of the big ten and not making the NCAA tournament is not cutting it.
 
14Red said:
If you are a guard, or really even a forward today, you're expected to handle the ball. The true PG is a luxury. Many teams don't have one. IU has two PG's in Xavier Johnson and Gabe Cupps. Johnson has been in and out of the lineup due to injury and suspension. He's good when he's good and bad when he's bad. Cupps to me has been disappointing, and that gets Ohio people chippy because he's their boy. I just hoped he'd be able to score a little more. It's basically 4 on 5 when he's on the floor, he rarely even looks for shots.

Roster construction. Yes. It's probably difficult to manage the roster these days because players come and go. Trey Galloway has become an impromptu PG over the years because he can handle the ball some and create some. IU's major flaw is they just don't have shooters, which is really hard to imagine in this day and age. To their credit, they kind of know who they are. With Ware and Reneau, the pound it inside incessantly. This is great if you're consistent at it. Ware is all over the map. He'll go 15 points 15 rebounds one game, and then have a 6/8 game. I'm not sure what's up with the rotation. From the start of the season, Ware, Reneau and Galloway all go 35+ minutes unless they are in foul trouble or injured. There are guys off the bench who'll play 8-10 minutes one game, then not play for 2-3 games. My confidence in Mike Woodson being the coach long term at IU is waning. His in game adjustments are slow and messy and I'm not sure what the assistants do. Woodson was a great Hoosier and many fans pick, but winning is what keeps a job and IU being in the middle to the bottom of the big ten and not making the NCAA tournament is not cutting it.
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I called this after seeing him in HS. My brother was all in on him and after I saw him and txtd him to cool his jets. Believe I have said it in here as well.
He is nothing more than a 7-8th man coming off the bench to give the real contributors a blow.

I dont know if IU was expecting him to be a major cog or not in the rebuild, but if so they sorely missed. Again.

What an embarrassing season. Again.

I held on for a long time in defending that Indiana was a blue blood program, but that hope is gone.

Forever.

May occassionally stumble upon some good seasons but the legacy of Indiana basketball is finished.
 
Thavoice said:
I called this after seeing him in HS. My brother was all in on him and after I saw him and txtd him to cool his jets. Believe I have said it in here as well.
He is nothing more than a 7-8th man coming off the bench to give the real contributors a blow.

I dont know if IU was expecting him to be a major cog or not in the rebuild, but if so they sorely missed. Again.

What an embarrassing season. Again.

I held on for a long time in defending that Indiana was a blue blood program, but that hope is gone.

Forever.

May occassionally stumble upon some good seasons but the legacy of Indiana basketball is finished.
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It's been awhile so I think the blue blood is over, I mean look at UCLA. The thing is Indiana basketball is still big, it still pulls some big TV numbers. I really think the original idea was that Cupps would sit behind Johnson this year and be ready to go next year. He's played more than expected and from a ball handling / defensive standpoint, he's been ok. He just has to be able to score more. Even if it's being a floor spacer as a shooter.

My fear moving forward is Woodson is getting guys who have one eye on the door. Purdue gets guys who are staying for 3-4 years. Saw something yesterday where Ware is projected as the #17 pick to the Knicks??? That's poison for college programs. Ware is a 2-3 year college player. Mgbako same way.
Now, if this entire team comes back next year, except senior Galloway, you add Liam McNeely and add possibly a shooter or two and this team could be dangerous next year. But if Ware and Mgbako leave for the NBA, you're right back at square one again.
 
I don't know how anyone could have watched Cupps the last few years at Centerville and thought he'd be an impact scorer, let alone immediately. He was not a premium scorer in high school, and it should have been clear that for him to play at this level that his value had to be in being a true point guard that runs the offense and as a defender.

I had figured he'd probably played more to this point than what was expected or planned. I have seen a lot of complaints on social media about him not scoring and passing up open shots and/or dribbling into contested midrange shots instead of shooting open 3s. He can and should be able to make what I'd call "floor spacer" shots. That's the one scoring tool I thought he had in high school that should translate to college. He was roughly a 40% 3pt shooter, and probably more like 45-50% if you dwindle the shot sample to catch and shoot situations and eliminate 3s off the dribble.

I previously thought and still think the ceiling there 2-3 years from now is Aaron Craft with a more reliable jump shot. If things don't click, the floor is probably a poor man's version of the same player...which a couple years from now means he's playing for a MAC school or equivalent.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
I don't know how anyone could have watched Cupps the last few years at Centerville and thought he'd be an impact scorer, let alone immediately. He was not a premium scorer in high school, and it should have been clear that for him to play at this level that his value had to be in being a true point guard that runs the offense and as a defender.

I had figured he'd probably played more to this point than what was expected or planned. I have seen a lot of complaints on social media about him not scoring and passing up open shots and/or dribbling into contested midrange shots instead of shooting open 3s. He can and should be able to make what I'd call "floor spacer" shots. That's the one scoring tool I thought he had in high school that should translate to college. He was roughly a 40% 3pt shooter, and probably more like 45-50% if you dwindle the shot sample to catch and shoot situations and eliminate 3s off the dribble.

I previously thought and still think the ceiling there 2-3 years from now is Aaron Craft with a more reliable jump shot. If things don't click, the floor is probably a poor man's version of the same player...which a couple years from now means he's playing for a MAC school or equivalent.
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I really didn't know what to expect out of Cupps going into this season. IU had Xavier Johnson coming back and Cupps certainly isn't a 2 guard so you felt this was going to be a development year. Well X has been hurt a couple of times and suspended once so Cupps has been pressed into duty. Now defensively and ball handling wise I have no problems. He actually guarded Boo Buie of Northwestern the other day and did very well, although Buie did miss about 17 minutes of the first half in foul trouble. And he did hit two 3's which is the most he's hit in a game this season.
Now I'm sure being a coach's kid, he's programmed to make the "right" play rather than just hunting for shots. But as poorly as IU is on the perimeter, we really need someone to take and make shots regularly from the perimeter. I hope he can finish out the year playing a little more freely and just let it go a little.
He's the type of kid that you may see that big jump from freshman to sophomore year.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1760532466824106223
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I've not followed Mike Woodson's coaching career or know what kind of coach he was at the NBA level. I think it's pretty apparent he's in way over his head. Maybe it's just too much, the basketball, the NIL, the transfer portal, the recruiting and the ability to develop players. Woodson still has a mixture of Archie Miller guys ( Trey Galloway, Anthony Leal and X Johnson) and his own guys. Oddly, the holdovers have been pretty key for him. Leal was an end of the bench guy early in the season and he's been forced into significant minutes because he knows what the heck he's doing.
Player development has been awful to say the least. Malik Reneau has been a bright spot on an otherwise dismal team this year. Galloway, largely because he's been around so long has been a guy who's held things together, but he's out of position and he probably wouldn't start for 8-9 other big ten teams. Johnson is just brittle and has spent as much time off the floor as on for IU.
Mike Woodson is a product of today's broken coaching. He's been and NBA lifetime assistant coach, with a small stint as a head coach. If you look at NBA benches, there are not one, but two rows of coaches for every team. I have no idea what all these guys bring to the table. Is there any pressure to win? Nope. By the very nature of a basketball team having double digit assistant coaches tells you it's not about winning. They've already won when they take the millions upon millions from the TV networks just to put their games on TV. Kings, Knicks, Lakers or Timberwolves, it's all the same. They've all won already.
So is Indiana stuck? No, not really. Woodson does not appear that he wants to put in the time and effort to make the product better. He's got an NBA past so he can make it appear he's a guy who can get you to the NBA, but I think we're quickly seeing that's not going to be the case.
Hoosier fans are holding out hope that Ka'lel Ware and Makenzie Mgbako will stay for another year, and top incoming recruit Liam McNeeley will make them a player next year in the big ten, but it's going to take more than that. Don't be surprised if Woodson is gone after this season.
 
14Red said:
I've not followed Mike Woodson's coaching career or know what kind of coach he was at the NBA level. I think it's pretty apparent he's in way over his head. Maybe it's just too much, the basketball, the NIL, the transfer portal, the recruiting and the ability to develop players. Woodson still has a mixture of Archie Miller guys ( Trey Galloway, Anthony Leal and X Johnson) and his own guys. Oddly, the holdovers have been pretty key for him. Leal was an end of the bench guy early in the season and he's been forced into significant minutes because he knows what the heck he's doing.
Player development has been awful to say the least. Malik Reneau has been a bright spot on an otherwise dismal team this year. Galloway, largely because he's been around so long has been a guy who's held things together, but he's out of position and he probably wouldn't start for 8-9 other big ten teams. Johnson is just brittle and has spent as much time off the floor as on for IU.
Mike Woodson is a product of today's broken coaching. He's been and NBA lifetime assistant coach, with a small stint as a head coach. If you look at NBA benches, there are not one, but two rows of coaches for every team. I have no idea what all these guys bring to the table. Is there any pressure to win? Nope. By the very nature of a basketball team having double digit assistant coaches tells you it's not about winning. They've already won when they take the millions upon millions from the TV networks just to put their games on TV. Kings, Knicks, Lakers or Timberwolves, it's all the same. They've all won already.
So is Indiana stuck? No, not really. Woodson does not appear that he wants to put in the time and effort to make the product better. He's got an NBA past so he can make it appear he's a guy who can get you to the NBA, but I think we're quickly seeing that's not going to be the case.
Hoosier fans are holding out hope that Ka'lel Ware and Makenzie Mgbako will stay for another year, and top incoming recruit Liam McNeeley will make them a player next year in the big ten, but it's going to take more than that. Don't be surprised if Woodson is gone after this season.
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Who thought he would do a great job at IU? Heck, Holtmann would have probably done a better job.
 
The track record for NBA guys transitioning to the college game is bad to mediocre at best. Woodson appears to be no exception to the norm elsewhere.

This seems like kind of a "retirement job" IMO to him. He's not going to figure out how to do well the things necessary that are required to be better than mediocre, and will only be around for maybe 1-2 more years before IU is searching for another coach. I wouldn't be overly shocked if he's gone after this year.
 
cjb5656 said:
Who thought he would do a great job at IU? Heck, Holtmann would have probably done a better job.
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I posted on here before that I like Holtman and would had liked to see him over Archie. IU needs a guy who's going to not only recruit the state, but develop players. How does Purdue do it? They get very few blue chippers. It's all about culture and development for them.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
The track record for NBA guys transitioning to the college game is bad to mediocre at best. Woodson appears to be no exception to the norm elsewhere.

This seems like kind of a "retirement job" IMO to him. He's not going to figure out how to do well the things necessary that are required to be better than mediocre, and will only be around for maybe 1-2 more years before IU is searching for another coach. I wouldn't be overly shocked if he's gone after this year.
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Well, he's going to be retired earlier than expected. IU fans are not going to settle for this. Archie did a better job in his first 3 years than Woodson, and that's saying alot!
 
14Red said:
Well, he's going to be retired earlier than expected. IU fans are not going to settle for this. Archie did a better job in his first 3 years than Woodson, and that's saying alot!
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Is it still possible to lock up the top couple Indiana HS kids each year and win a championship? Does Indiana have that type of production anymore of HS prospects?
 
cjb5656 said:
Is it still possible to lock up the top couple Indiana HS kids each year and win a championship? Does Indiana have that type of production anymore of HS prospects?
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Depends on who you are getting and their development. Braden Smith at Purdue is a great example. Likely not an NBA type player, he's going to be one of the all time greats at Purdue by the time he's done. Purdue will likely go out and get another big to replace Edey and win another 25 games next season. Critics will say Purdue hasn't won a title, but they are consistently at the top of the big ten year in and year out.
 
cjb5656 said:
Is it still possible to lock up the top couple Indiana HS kids each year and win a championship? Does Indiana have that type of production anymore of HS prospects?
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I am not sure about HS basketball in Indiana, but remind me of...

The University of Kentucky fans cry about this all the time.... they want the homegrown talent of Kentucky to stay at UK and be the saviors! Reed Shepherd is that guy and everyone in the state of Kentucky loves him... and he is a solid player. Rex Chapman, Richie Farmer, Darren Feldhouse, Pelfry, etc... bring back the glory days of the in-state folklore.

Damon Bailey was that guy in IU history....
 
jdizzle said:
I am not sure about HS basketball in Indiana, but remind me of...

The University of Kentucky fans cry about this all the time.... they want the homegrown talent of Kentucky to stay at UK and be the saviors! Reed Shepherd is that guy and everyone in the state of Kentucky loves him... and he is a solid player. Rex Chapman, Richie Farmer, Darren Feldhouse, Pelfry, etc... bring back the glory days of the in-state folklore.

Damon Bailey was that guy in IU history....
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Yeah, but not just him. Guys like Alan Henderson, who everyone wanted, but chose to stay home. Is the state still developing players of that caliber? Greg Oden, Bailey, Jeffries, etc?
 
cjb5656 said:
Yeah, but not just him. Guys like Alan Henderson, who everyone wanted, but chose to stay home. Is the state still developing players of that caliber? Greg Oden, Bailey, Jeffries, etc?
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I did a quick glance and Zach Randolf was probably the most recent/highly ranked player of late. He went to Michigan State. Calbert Chaney was #52 on that list. He was better than 52. He was a smooth lefty!

Some pretty good names on the list that never went to IU. But you could say the same about any state retaining their own at the state school.
 
There was a top-15 national recruit in Indiana last year, and another one that's a senior this year. Neither were La Lumiere (prep school) kids. Indiana didn't manage to sign either of them.

Indiana high school basketball is still good enough that Hoosier high schoolers ought to take up at least 6-7 of their 13 allotted scholarships every year.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
There was a top-15 national recruit in Indiana last year, and another one that's a senior this year. Neither were La Lumiere (prep school) kids. Indiana didn't manage to sign either of them.

Indiana high school basketball is still good enough that Hoosier high schoolers ought to take up at least 6-7 of their 13 allotted scholarships every year.
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That’s kinda what I was thinking. Get the top two from Indiana every year and obviously recruit nationally as well.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
There was a top-15 national recruit in Indiana last year, and another one that's a senior this year. Neither were La Lumiere (prep school) kids. Indiana didn't manage to sign either of them.

Indiana high school basketball is still good enough that Hoosier high schoolers ought to take up at least 6-7 of their 13 allotted scholarships every year.
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Isn't Purdue located in Indiana? Plus Indiana is surrounding by Illinois, OSU, Kentucky, TTUN, MSU. Lot of competition for the top players in Indiana. Most players go to a school for one reason the coach not the school itself.
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
Isn't Purdue located in Indiana? Plus Indiana is surrounding by Illinois, OSU, Kentucky, TTUN, MSU. Lot of competition for the top players in Indiana. Most players go to a school for one reason the coach not the school itself.
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Purdue is not exactly a recruiting juggernaut, and I would argue that they are a clear second fiddle to Indiana in-state in terms of fandom and following. Zach Edey and Braden Smith were 3 star recruits. Jaden Ivey was a borderline top-100 recruit. They find guys that fit their system/style of play, and they develop them.

If IU was any good, they would get their fair share of the best in-state talent. An accomplished coach or proven recruiter IMO would consistently field a top-15 type of roster between in-state recruits and nationally recruiting.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
Purdue is not exactly a recruiting juggernaut, and I would argue that they are a clear second fiddle to Indiana in-state in terms of fandom and following. Zach Edey and Braden Smith were 3 star recruits. Jaden Ivey was a borderline top-100 recruit. They find guys that fit their system/style of play, and they develop them.

If IU was any good, they would get their fair share of the best in-state talent. An accomplished coach or proven recruiter IMO would consistently field a top-15 type of roster between in-state recruits and nationally recruiting.
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Absolutely, I think a factor that we really don't take into account is the fallacy of these recruiting services. Instead of just accepting these 5/4 star rankings as law and they are simply opinions. Many of these services charge kids to sign up for rankings so it's not really credible at all. There is so much development that goes on with college kids that you really don't know what you have.
But you are correct, IU should be able to get their share of in state recruits and go from there.
 
As happy as I am for IU beating Wisconsin, this just shows what this group's capability is. It's amazing to me the difference in the ceiling and floor of this team. Wisconsin has owned Indiana for many, many years, so it was good to beat them.
 
Greg Gard has to be ticked with how bad his interior defense was last night. Ware was 11/12 from the field on mostly dunks and close shots.
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
Isn't Purdue located in Indiana? Plus Indiana is surrounding by Illinois, OSU, Kentucky, TTUN, MSU. Lot of competition for the top players in Indiana. Most players go to a school for one reason the coach not the school itself.
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Plus the IU program is irrelevant to anyone under the age of 30. The Hoosiers have been to one Elite Eight since the 92-93 season, and that was the fluke run to national title game in 2002 under Mike Davis.

The Indiana program these days is no different than Iowa or Ohio State or Minnesota or Nebraska or any of the other mediocre Big Ten state school programs.
 
AEW Champion said:
Plus the IU program is irrelevant to anyone under the age of 30. The Hoosiers have been to one Elite Eight since the 92-93 season, and that was the fluke run to national title game in 2002 under Mike Davis.

The Indiana program these days is no different than Iowa or Ohio State or Minnesota or Nebraska or any of the other mediocre Big Ten state school programs.
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You are certainly correct there. Actually, during the Thad Matta era, Ohio State basketball was an elite program for about a decade. I've never understood why Ohio State hoops can't be like the football team, other than there are just more games and the parity of college basketball is so much more than football. Now somehow, someway IU still pulls a good number because even with the recent mediocracy, they get alot of national games on TV. There are still many alive today that remember those banners. Crazy to think that only Michigan State once, Michigan once and IU have the only national championships in forever.
 
What a strange IU game yesterday at Maryland. Hoosiers was down 16 with just over 16 minutes to go. By the 8:18 mark, they'd taken the lead. Mgbako went off in the second half, ending up with 24 points. The other guy that turned things around was Xavier Johnson. He played 32 minutes and had 13 points and 6 assists. IU has an interesting dilemma the rest of the way. This season is gone, they have no chance of making the tournament, so do you play Xavier Johnson, knowing he's done next year in favor of freshman Gabe Cupps? Cupps played all of 8 minutes yesterday, had 5 points on 2/2 shooting.
Mike Woodson, coming from an NBA background has a tough time slicing up playing time for some reason. Gunn and Walker combined for 9 minutes and Banks didn't play. Meanwhile, Ware went 39 minutes and Galloway 38. It's incredible how little he uses his bench at times.
 
Indiana easily appears to be the most athletic team in the Big Ten and don’t think it’s all that close. It’s amazing how big they are inside and those big men aren’t bad shooters. Minnesota is a big team and Indiana makes them look small.

Indiana is so big they can play Dawson Garcia 1 on 1 with no issues at all.
 
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