Elder D2 in Football?

V

Vincent and Regina

Well-known member
So the main board posted this thread.
yappi.com

Prelim enrollment numbers are out.

https://www.ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment.
yappi.com yappi.com


In years past the top 72 teams would go to D1.

I copied the data and sorted it. 53 schools do not have listed numbers. Most of the schools are Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Columbus City Public Schools. So I know West Hi and Walnuts Hills would be D1. I am not sure of the rest of the schools from outside of Cincinnati.

As of right now leaving out West Hi, Walnut Hills Elder comes in as number 75. This does not include any competitive balance penalty given to Elder. So this year might be the year Elder drops to D2.


Side note
Top 12 largest schools via male population 8 of which are in Region 4.

1 Mason
2 Fairfield
3 Hamilton
4 Lakota West
5 St Ignatius
6 St Xavier
7 Lakota East
8 Centerville
9 Gahanna Lincoln
10 Reynoldsburg
11 Oak Hills
12 West Clermont
 
 
Competitive Balance adjusts Elder upward not downward. It doesn’t make any sense they’d fall this year when enrollment is higher than it was a few yrs ago. Elder should manipulate that competitive balance figure as much as possible.

Literally nobody wants Elder in D2. The D2 teams don’t want it, the OHSAA doesn’t want it, and Elder sure as hell doesn’t want it.
 
Last edited:
If the number of boys Elder attracts from outside the traditional feeder schools remains fairly constant, which I guess it has for a while (I don't know one way or the other), does anyone have any idea what the demographics for those tradtional feeders say for Elder five years from now? Ten? Twenty? Will Elder always be D-I but near the D-I/D-II cutoff some years? Or will Elder eventually bounce back and forth between D-I and D-II? Or is Elder eventually destined to go to D-II for football if nothing changes?
 
Pantherontheporch said:
If the number of boys Elder attracts from outside the traditional feeder schools remains fairly constant, which I guess it has for a while (I don't know one way or the other), does anyone have any idea what the demographics for those tradtional feeders say for Elder five years from now? Ten? Twenty? Will Elder always be D-I but near the D-I/D-II cutoff some years? Or will Elder eventually bounce back and forth between D-I and D-II? Or is Elder eventually destined to go to D-II for football if nothing changes?
Click to expand...
The comp balance factor is up to the school. Elder can manipulate it to stay D1. Again, nobody wants Elder to be in D2, there has to be some kind of work around. It’s not cheating if you’re trying to keep yourself in a more competitive division.

Also, enrollment is pretty good at the moment. They’re over 200 in each class across the board. The class of ‘21 was tiny, like 170ish, but they still managed to stay D1.
 
Last edited:
Is there any validity to the posts in the football forum saying D2-D7 coaches and ADs are upset that essentially all D1 schools make the playoffs and therefore they’re pushing the OHSAA to increase the number of D1 schools up from 72?

The biggest thing outside Elder’s control is the population growth in public school districts in the Columbus area if the number of D1 schools doesn't increase. For example, the Olentangy Local School District in Delaware County now has the fourth largest enrollment in the state behind only Cincinnati, Cleveland and Columbus city schools. Since 1998, the district's enrollment is up from 4,812 to 22,573--an increase of 370%. The district projects that over the next 10 years they'll add another 4,000 students PK-12. The district has 4 high schools: Olentangy (previously D2), Olentangy Orange (previously D1), Olentangy Liberty (previously D1) and Olentangy Berlin (previously D2). Based on the numbers on the OHSAA's site all four of those schools have more boys than Elder does pre-competitive balance. I think it's safe to say growth like this will continue around Columbus when the Intel facilities are built.
 
Last edited:
The competitive balance number always moves us up to D1. And a few years ago when we made the state championship game, we were the smallest school by enrollment in D1.
 
Mad Dogg said:
The competitive balance number always moves us up to D1. And a few years ago when we made the state championship game, we were the smallest school by enrollment in D1.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Elder will be Division 1. Enrollment is still steady(above 200 per class), and the CB number keeps Elder in D1. Without the CB number boost, they are border line D1.
 
Omar said:
The comp balance factor is up to the school. Elder can manipulate it to stay D1. Again, nobody wants Elder to be in D2, there has to be some kind of work around. It’s not cheating if you’re trying to keep yourself in a more competitive division.
Click to expand...

I don't think manipulate is the right word, because there is nothing unethical about it. If they were trying to be D2, then manipulate would be a better word.

Private schools get to set their feeder school district. My guess is they choose Cincinnati City- West district which includes the schools below.
*Cincinnati City- West Attendance Zone Holy Family Our Lady Of Lourdes Resurrection St. Aloysius On-The-Ohio St. Antoninus St. Catharine Of Siena St. Joseph St. Lawrence St. Martin Of Tours St. Teresa Of Avila St. William

If they chose Oak Hills SD, their CB number would be much smaller.
Oak Hills Local Our Lady of Victory Our Lady of Visitation St. Aloysius Gonzaga St. Dominic St. Jude

The 2nd and only other option for non-public schools is to designate every elementary school with 12.5 miles of the school as a feeder. Elder may be doing this option, but I don't know. I'm guessing they don't use option 2, because it would probably lower their CB number. Visitation is only 7 miles from Elder. I do not believe Elder would ever choose this option unless they truly wanted to increase their chances of playing in a lower Division.

Once the feeder district is set, you look at the football roster and each player is assigned a value 0, 1, or 2 based on their residence/school.
0 points = continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade AND attends a designated feeder school.
1 point = continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade AND does NOT attend a designated feeder school.
2 points = non-continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade

I'm guessing all of those Visitation, Victory, and Jude kids add 1 point per Varsity player to the Competitive Balance number.

I would just guess you can add around 50 for competitive balance total giving Elder 650 enrollment for football assignment.
 
Keep in mind, Elder is only close to D2 for football only. The other sports have less divisions making the cutoff to D2 a much smaller number.

Elder will be Division 1 in all sports still.
 
ElderHSfan02 said:
It looks like Elder's last Competitive Balance number for football was 47. I don't understand how X, Ed's, Moeller, and Ignatius have such high CB total. Doesn't look correct.

Click to expand...

My guess is X, Ed's, Moeller, and Ignatius counted their JV roster, and maybe Elder did not.

To be on the safe side, to stay D1, Elder has to be using the Cincinnati West district for CB numbers AND be counting their JV roster. Choosing Oak Hills SD or the 12.5 mile radius(option 2) would give them lower CB numbers and put them in danger of moving down to D2 for football.
 
EHS 2001 said:
Is there any validity to the posts in the football forum saying D2-D7 coaches and ADs are upset that essentially all D1 schools make the playoffs and therefore they’re pushing the OHSAA to increase the number of D1 schools up from 72?

The biggest thing outside Elder’s control is the population growth in public school districts in the Columbus area if the number of D1 schools doesn't increase. For example, the Olentangy Local School District in Delaware County now has the fourth largest enrollment in the state behind only Cincinnati, Cleveland and Columbus city schools. Since 1998, the district's enrollment is up from 4,812 to 22,573--an increase of 370%. The district projects that over the next 10 years they'll add another 4,000 students PK-12. The district has 4 high schools: Olentangy (previously D2), Olentangy Orange (previously D1), Olentangy Liberty (previously D1) and Olentangy Berlin (previously D2). Based on the numbers on the OHSAA's site all four of those schools have more boys than Elder does pre-competitive balance. I think it's safe to say growth like this will continue around Columbus when the Intel facilities are built.
Click to expand...

Olentangy is geographically huge and plenty of land to build new subdivisions.
 
ElderHSfan02 said:
My guess is X, Ed's, Moeller, and Ignatius counted their JV roster, and maybe Elder did not.

To be on the safe side, to stay D1, Elder has to be using the Cincinnati West district for CB numbers AND be counting their JV roster. Choosing Oak Hills SD or the 12.5 mile radius(option 2) would give them lower CB numbers and put them in danger of moving down to D2 for football.
Click to expand...
Isn't the majority of the competitive balance number based on the number of kids outside of the typical boundaries of the school? If that's the case, it makes sense to me that Elder's score would be much lower when compared to the school you listed. The schools you mentioned pull from a much broader portion of the city, while Elder is still mostly westside kids (I know it's starting to expand a little).

I would also guess that those programs typically play more underclassmen on the varsity level than Elder does. It's actually an interesting comparison between how schools operate. I'd expect Elder's number to go up a little based on pulling more outside kids as well as having to tap into their underclassmen to supplement depth and lower roster numbers recently.
 
Last edited:
ElderHSfan02 said:
I don't think manipulate is the right word, because there is nothing unethical about it. If they were trying to be D2, then manipulate would be a better word.

Private schools get to set their feeder school district. My guess is they choose Cincinnati City- West district which includes the schools below.
*Cincinnati City- West Attendance Zone Holy Family Our Lady Of Lourdes Resurrection St. Aloysius On-The-Ohio St. Antoninus St. Catharine Of Siena St. Joseph St. Lawrence St. Martin Of Tours St. Teresa Of Avila St. William

If they chose Oak Hills SD, their CB number would be much smaller.
Oak Hills Local Our Lady of Victory Our Lady of Visitation St. Aloysius Gonzaga St. Dominic St. Jude

The 2nd and only other option for non-public schools is to designate every elementary school with 12.5 miles of the school as a feeder. Elder may be doing this option, but I don't know. I'm guessing they don't use option 2, because it would probably lower their CB number. Visitation is only 7 miles from Elder. I do not believe Elder would ever choose this option unless they truly wanted to increase their chances of playing in a lower Division.

Once the feeder district is set, you look at the football roster and each player is assigned a value 0, 1, or 2 based on their residence/school.
0 points = continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade AND attends a designated feeder school.
1 point = continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade AND does NOT attend a designated feeder school.
2 points = non-continuous enrollment in same school system since 7th grade

I'm guessing all of those Visitation, Victory, and Jude kids add 1 point per Varsity player to the Competitive Balance number.

I would just guess you can add around 50 for competitive balance total giving Elder 650 enrollment for football assignment.
Click to expand...
You can manipulate something w/o it being unethical. You’re thinking of the word tampering.
 
OnTheLine85 said:
Isn't the majority of the competitive balance number based on the number of kids outside of the typical boundaries of the school? If that's the case, it makes sense to me that Elder's score would be much lower when compared to the school you listed. The schools you mentioned pull from a much broader portion of the city, while Elder is still mostly westside kids (I know it's starting to expand a little).

I would also guess that those programs typically play more underclassmen on the varsity level than Elder does. It's actually an interesting comparison between how schools operate. I'd expect Elder's number to go up a little based on pulling more outside kids as well as having to tap into their underclassmen to supplement depth and lower roster numbers recently.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you only count your football roster 10th-12th and any 9th that played at least 1 varsity snap. You can use your JV roster for the 10th.

Even if X for example counted every single player as outside their boundary, how do they get a total of 400+? They would have to have 200+ football players 10th-12th and assign every one of them tier 2 worth 2 points each.

On the other side, I would expect Elder's number to be higher if you count the JV team like you are supposed to now.
 
OnTheLine85 said:
Isn't the majority of the competitive balance number based on the number of kids outside of the typical boundaries of the school? If that's the case, it makes sense to me that Elder's score would be much lower when compared to the school you listed. The schools you mentioned pull from a much broader portion of the city, while Elder is still mostly westside kids (I know it's starting to expand a little).
Click to expand...

It depends on which school district they claim. If they claim Cincinnati West, then all those Visitation, Victory, Jude, and Dominic kids count OUTSIDE their district since they are classified as Oak Hills Local School District. That is a large percentage of their student body.
 
ElderHSfan02 said:
Yes, but you only count your football roster 10th-12th and any 9th that played at least 1 varsity snap. You can use your JV roster for the 10th.

Even if X for example counted every single player as outside their boundary, how do they get a total of 400+? They would have to have 200+ football players 10th-12th and assign every one of them tier 2 worth 2 points each.

On the other side, I would expect Elder's number to be higher if you count the JV team like you are supposed to now.
Click to expand...
Got it - I didn't realize you could use the JV roster. I thought it was Freshman and JV kids that got Varsity snaps. In that sense, yes, it does seem low.
 
OnTheLine85 said:
Got it - I didn't realize you could use the JV roster. I thought it was Freshman and JV kids that got Varsity snaps. In that sense, yes, it does seem low.
Click to expand...

I don't know how new this is, but this is what it says on the website.

It does not matter on what team the students in grades 10 through 12 played (varsity, junior varsity, reserve, Gold squad, Black squad, etc.). Each of those students in grades 10 through 12 (including students who were on the roster but later were not part of the team due to injury, transfer, move, quit, dismissal, etc.) MUST be entered. • Only enter ninth grade students if he/she played in a varsity regular season contest.
 
PantherVOR said:
Well maybe they will need a 5th… I have a feeling the parents in that school district won’t tolerate high student to teacher ratios.
Click to expand...
I found this article that details the ten year planning for Olentangy Local Schools. https://www.delgazette.com/news/92883/olsd-4th-largest-in-ohio

They’re currently building their sixth middle school along with the projected need to eventually add 3 more elementary schools to the 16 they already have. As of now, the projections don’t call for a fifth high school.
 
This type of conversation is why I like coming to the Elder board. We talk about how a school we have never played in football (to my knowledge) might affect if Elder stays D1.
 
Another factor working against Elder is public school consolidation. For example West Clermont HS, as V&R listed it's now #12 in the state for OHSAA enrollment, but when the district was Glen Este and Amelia separately those schools were D2. The only other local example of possible consolidation I can think of is if Anderson and Turpin were to merge. However, seemingly everyone in the Forest Hills district is opposed to consolidating.
 
EHS 2001 said:
Another factor working against Elder is public school consolidation. For example West Clermont HS, as V&R listed it's now #12 in the state for OHSAA enrollment, but when the district was Glen Este and Amelia separately those schools were D2. The only other local example of possible consolidation I can think of is if Anderson and Turpin were to merge. However, seemingly everyone in the Forest Hills district is opposed to consolidating.
Click to expand...
I talked to a lady who's daughters attended Anderson. She told me the two schools don't get along. Plus they look at it differently. I mentioned that Anderson and Turpin combining they would be a really good football school. She told me they look at it as right now they have 2 QBs, 2 RB, 2 of everything else. If they combine they only have 1 of each and less of a chance to get the big scholarship. They were less about winning a championship and more of getting everyone a free ride to college. Different ways to look at things.
 
Exactly. Also two valedictorians, two student council presidents, two faculties, two sets of administrators, etc.
 

​

The final 2022-23 and 2023-24 school enrollment figures and classifications have been posted. Elder's figure is 567 and again their governance classification is AAA.
It says "After the enrollment numbers become final, the enrollment figures will be used to determine OHSAA tournament divisions for the 2022-23 and 2023-2024 school years. For the OHSAA tournament sports in which competitive balance will apply, the competitive balance roster will be added to the ODE base enrollment counts prior to the determination of tournament divisions for those sports."
So they will add X to Elder's 567 to get its adjusted enrollment total for football. Last time around Elder's numbers were 570 + 47 for 617 and that kept Elder in D-I.

 
Pantherontheporch said:
Click to expand...
I'd like to say how incredibly unhelpful it is that the OHSAA posts the enrollment list in alphabetical order instead of largest to smallest. But what else should we expect?

Yappi did the work the OHSAA won't and posted a list from largest (Mason with 1300 boys) to smallest (St. John Central Academy with 5 boys).

yappi.com

Enrollment Figures (w/out competitive balance)

Ordered list by largest to smallest. First number is their rank, second number is the actual boys enrollment: 1 - - - 1300 Mason (Mason) 2 - - - 1243 Fairfield (Fairfield) 3 - - - 1156 Hamilton (Hamilton) 4 - - - 1097 Lakota West (West Chester) 5 - - -...
yappi.com yappi.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top