Ask The Ref?

There is an altercation in the game after a play has been completed and there are unsportsmanlike penalties. The offense has two players with a penalty and the defense has one player with a penalty. Is this offsetting or does the offense get 15 yards penalized because of the additional penalty?
 
Yappi said:
There is an altercation in the game after a play has been completed and there are unsportsmanlike penalties. The offense has two players with a penalty and the defense has one player with a penalty. Is this offsetting or does the offense get 15 yards penalized because of the additional penalty?
Click to expand...
Further do all yards have to be marched off before ball is set for play again?
 
Yappi said:
There is an altercation in the game after a play has been completed and there are unsportsmanlike penalties. The offense has two players with a penalty and the defense has one player with a penalty. Is this offsetting or does the offense get 15 yards penalized because of the additional penalty?
Click to expand...
Offense is penalized 15yds for their additional foul.
 
R1 blocks K1s scrimmage kick (Field goal attempt) and in doing so runs through the kicking foot. K was awarded an automatic first down for roughing the kicker. Correct or is the “blocker” allowed to hit the kicker in Thai situation? Thanks again.
 
JackEd said:
R1 blocks K1s scrimmage kick (Field goal attempt) and in doing so runs through the kicking foot. K was awarded an automatic first down for roughing the kicker. Correct or is the “blocker” allowed to hit the kicker in Thai situation? Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Blocking the kick does not give the defender license to contact the kicker. Therefore, if the defense is to be excused for contacting the kicker/ holder as a result of touching the kick, the ball must be touched near the spot of the kick. If contact is made, that contact must have occurred during an honest effort to block that kick and the contact was unavoidable due to it being a part of that action.

In other words, like many other actions, it's a judgment call.
 
The game I was at, R1 tipped the kick in the backfield and then ran through the kicking leg of K. It was bang bang. What is the Rule to be exact, google is not helping me out. I don’t care how the game turned out, just got me thinking bc obviously half the crowd was going nuts and the other half was celebrating.
 
JackEd said:
The game I was at, R1 tipped the kick in the backfield and then ran through the kicking leg of K. It was bang bang. What is the Rule to be exact, google is not helping me out. I don’t care how the game turned out, just got me thinking bc obviously half the crowd was going nuts and the other half was celebrating.
Click to expand...
Rule 9-4 - Illegal Personal Contact

Article 5 - . Running into or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when :
a. Contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.
b. The defense touches the kick near the kicker and contact is unavoidable.
c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.
d. Contact is caused by R being blocked into the kicker or holder by K

Case Book Play 9.4.5 Situation A
Roughing The Kicker/Holder - Or Not

9.4.5 SITUATION A: K1 punts and R1 touches and partially blocks the kick. R2 does not touch the ball, but firmly contacts K1.

RULING: If R1 partially blocked the kick near the kicker/holder and R2 was near the kicker/holder at the time R1 touched the ball and R2 had already started his charge at the time the kick was touched. there would be no foul as a result of the contact by R2, unless it was unnecessarily rough.

COMMENT: The defense is responsible to avoid the kicker/holder whenever possible. In any situation, if the defense is to be excused for contacting the kicker/ holder as a result of touching the kick, the ball must be touched near the spot of the kick. A defensive player may not, even after the kick has been touched, stop and then renew his charge into the kicker/holder, nor may he change his direction and charge into the kicker/holder after the ball is touched. Touching the kicked ball is, in itself, not license to charge the kicker/holder. The defensive player will not be penalized if he has made an honest endeavor to block the kick and has either succeeded, or so nearly succeeded that he touched the ball and in so doing finds himself in a position where he cannot avoid contacting the kicker/holder as a result of his effort. The rule does not specify that only the player who touches the kick is excused from contacting the kicker/holder, rather it states, "when the defense touches..." (9-4-5b)
 
Question, and this is an NFL question. So in last night's Titan's Dolphins game, the Titan punt returner let the punt bounce and wasn't going to catch it. The ball bounced towards him and he decided to try to catch it on the bounce. The Dolphin defender grabbed his arm BEFORE the ball touched him.
So my question, once the ball hits the ground, is there no protection for the receiver of the ball? If a guy is catching a punt in the air, he cannot be contacted before the ball arrives. No one on TV or anyone said a word about this play. Enlighten me.
 
14Red said:
Question, and this is an NFL question. So in last night's Titan's Dolphins game, the Titan punt returner let the punt bounce and wasn't going to catch it. The ball bounced towards him and he decided to try to catch it on the bounce. The Dolphin defender grabbed his arm BEFORE the ball touched him.
So my question, once the ball hits the ground, is there no protection for the receiver of the ball? If a guy is catching a punt in the air, he cannot be contacted before the ball arrives. No one on TV or anyone said a word about this play. Enlighten me.
Click to expand...
The ball hitting the ground dissolves the protection.
 
This situation happened a few weeks ago in the Buffalo Bills game and I didn't understand the interpretation. Josh Allen, QB, was running the ball into the endzone after a great fake that took the defensive back off his feet. Because of his move, Allen pointed at the defender and laughed BEFORE he entered the endzone (probably within five yards of the end zone). When he "taunted" the player, the flag was thrown immediately.

The call on the field was taunting and the touchdown stood. So my question is, if the taunting occurred during the play and the flag was thrown during the play, why wasn't the touchdown taken away? Why is this any different than a holding call that occurred during the play, etc..? It was not announced as a dead ball foul, etc...

I could care less about the Bills and whoever they were playing, just didn't understand why an act within the play was considered a dead ball foul even though it happened within the play.
 
In NFHS (and I believe the NFL as well... I'm not as well versed on their rules), unsportsmanlike conduct is penalized as a dead ball foul. So, the play counts (including any live ball penalties), then you assess the UNS penalty.

This is different from NCAA where it is a live ball penalty. This change was made a few years ago and the play you describe was exactly what they wanted to eliminate from their games. If you take away a touchdown, they'll learn not to do it.
 
Altor said:
In NFHS (and I believe the NFL as well... I'm not as well versed on their rules), unsportsmanlike conduct is penalized as a dead ball foul. So, the play counts (including any live ball penalties), then you assess the UNS penalty.

This is different from NCAA where it is a live ball penalty. This change was made a few years ago and the play you describe was exactly what they wanted to eliminate from their games. If you take away a touchdown, they'll learn not to do it.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, thank you for the clarification.
 
14Red said:
Question, and this is an NFL question. So in last night's Titan's Dolphins game, the Titan punt returner let the punt bounce and wasn't going to catch it. The ball bounced towards him and he decided to try to catch it on the bounce. The Dolphin defender grabbed his arm BEFORE the ball touched him.
So my question, once the ball hits the ground, is there no protection for the receiver of the ball? If a guy is catching a punt in the air, he cannot be contacted before the ball arrives. No one on TV or anyone said a word about this play. Enlighten me.
Click to expand...
As an aside to this: the Canadian game has a very interesting rule regarding this. In the Canadian game, the ball has a 5-yard halo for a return man to get the ball. And unlike in American football, someone MUST return the kick. Because in the Canadian game, anyone behind the ball when it's punting is exempt from the 5 yard halo and can also recover the punt themselves. So, no return man, the punter can run downfield (or any gunners who line up deep, and they do sometimes) and recover a punt no one is attempting to return. Though everyone else must still keep giving the 5 yard halo.

It's interesting in that they must return the punt, but there's a chance for the offense to get it back.

And that's what gives you this bit of ingenuity:


As long as the 'punt' reaches the line of scrimmage, it's a recoverable punt and a player behind the ball at the time of the punt recovers it. Fresh set of downs. Great trick play when big yards are needed and the defenders are playing prevent.

And back to HS football rules...
 
In the American game many years ago the rules were very similar regarding punts and field goals. Also the CFL is talking about changing the rules to no longer allow this practice, details on how the rule will be altered have not been mentioned.
 
Hello everyone, I’m from Milan and I’m a former Rugby player, now I’m interested in football. I already know the rules roughly but I have some doubts about it.

Touchback or safety
  1. An offensive player (Team A) is tackled near the opposing endzone, he fumbles the ball and it ends up rolling directly out of the opposing endzone, (Team B) this is a touchback?
  2. An offensive player (Team A) tries to pass the ball to another offensive player but the ball is intercepted on the fly by a defender. The ball then bounces off the defender who tried to intercept the ball and ends up outside his own endzone (Team B) I think it’s touchback?
  3. A player (Team A) is tackled near his own endzone, he fumbles the ball and it ends rolling directly out of his own endzone, safety?
  4. An offensive player (Team A) tries to pass the ball to another offensive player, but the ball is intercepted on the fly by a defender (Team B). The ball then bounces off the defender who tried to intercept the ball and ends up out of his endzone (Endzone of Team A). In that case, I think it’s safety?
Kicks in endzone
  1. A kickoff, not touched by anyone, goes into endzone, the kicking team can recover the ball for a touchdown, on the fly or once it has grounded in endzone or would it be a touchback?
  2. A kickoff but, in this case, touched or muffed by receveing team, when touchback or touchdown?
  3. The same but with an untouched punt, TB or TD?
  4. The same but with a touched punt by receiving team, TB or TD?
  5. These are a little more special cases. Muffed kickoff lands near the endzone, there one of the KT dives on it, the ball, which was still moving, pushed further by the dive ends in endzone, where the KT takes it from the ground while still moving or takes it on the fly, in this case TD or TB?
  6. The same but in this case it is a muffed punt.
  7. What I didn’t understand is this:
    The kicking team can recover a kickoff and a punt, in the first case if it exceeds 10 yards or muffed by the defense, in the second case only if it was first touched by the defense, but the team can not advance the ball, that is only recover it. If the KT did not take possession of the ball but advance it in a sneaky way, I mean if he pushed the ball with his feet or legs, or if he pushed it by diving over it and then retrieve it in endzone for a touchdown, would it be legal? I imagine a situation like this:
    Team A punts a ball to Team B that touches It but fails to catch it, Team A then volleyball, without catching it, to an other of the Team A that takes the ball in endzone, would it be touchdown?
So you can push a kickoff or a punt, or is deadball at first touching?

Rule set: NFL.
Scuse me for my English.
Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Mrjack said:
Hello everyone, I’m from Milan and I’m a former Rugby player, now I’m interested in football. I already know the rules roughly but I have some doubts about it.
Click to expand...
While this is primarily a High School rules thread, I'll try to answer these for you.....
Mrjack said:
Touchback or safety
  1. An offensive player (Team A) is tackled near the opposing endzone, he fumbles the ball and it ends up rolling directly out of the opposing endzone, (Team B) this is a touchback?
Click to expand...
Yes. Although the NFL will be exploring changes to this rule in the off-season.
Mrjack said:
  1. An offensive player (Team A) tries to pass the ball to another offensive player but the ball is intercepted on the fly by a defender. The ball then bounces off the defender who tried to intercept the ball and ends up outside his own endzone (Team B) I think it’s touchback?
Click to expand...
Not enough clarity here to make a ruling.....

- You say the ball was intercepted, then say it bounces off the player wo tried to intercept the ball. Was the ball ever possessed by the defender?

- What do you mean by "outside the endzone"? At the 2 yard line? Out of bounds?
Mrjack said:
  1. A player (Team A) is tackled near his own endzone, he fumbles the ball and it ends rolling directly out of his own endzone, safety?
Click to expand...
Yes*

*However, there could be an instance where it is a touchback.
Mrjack said:
Kicks in endzone
  1. A kickoff, not touched by anyone, goes into endzone, the kicking team can recover the ball for a touchdown, on the fly or once it has grounded in endzone or would it be a touchback?
Click to expand...
If a free kick is not touched by the receiving team, it is a dead ball and touchback once it touches the ground in the end zone
Mrjack said:
  1. A kickoff but, in this case, touched or muffed by receveing team, when touchback or touchdown?
Click to expand...
Yes
Mrjack said:
  1. The same but with an untouched punt, TB or TD?
Click to expand...
Touchback
Mrjack said:
  1. The same but with a touched punt by receiving team, TB or TD?
Click to expand...
Touchdown
Mrjack said:
  1. These are a little more special cases. Muffed kickoff lands near the endzone, there one of the KT dives on it, the ball, which was still moving, pushed further by the dive ends in endzone, where the KT takes it from the ground while still moving or takes it on the fly, in this case TD or TB?
Click to expand...
As described, this is a touchdown.
Mrjack said:
  1. The same but in this case it is a muffed punt.
Click to expand...
As described, this is a touchdown.
Mrjack said:
  1. What I didn’t understand is this:
    The kicking team can recover a kickoff and a punt, in the first case if it exceeds 10 yards or muffed by the defense, in the second case only if it was first touched by the defense, but the team can not advance the ball, that is only recover it. If the KT did not take possession of the ball but advance it in a sneaky way, I mean if he pushed the ball with his feet or legs, or if he pushed it by diving over it and then retrieve it in endzone for a touchdown, would it be legal? I imagine a situation like this:
    Team A punts a ball to Team B that touches It but fails to catch it, Team A then volleyball, without catching it, to an other of the Team A that takes the ball in endzone, would it be touchdown?
Click to expand...
It is illegal to bat or punch a loose ball towards their opponent's goal line. On a kickoff (free kick), the receiving team would be awarded the ball 1st and 10 after a 10 yard penalty assessed from the spot of the foul. On a punt (scrimmage kick) it would be first touching.
Mrjack said:
So you can push a kickoff or a punt, or is deadball at first touching?
Click to expand...
As noted above, it's an illegal bat and the receiving team on a free kick (kick off) and first touching on a scrimmage kick (punt)
Mrjack said:
Rule set: NFL.
Scuse me for my English.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Glad to help....

Welcome to the forum from Italy !!
 
AllSports12 said:
While this is primarily a High School rules thread, I'll try to answer these for you.....

Yes. Although the NFL will be exploring changes to this rule in the off-season.

Not enough clarity here to make a ruling.....

- You say the ball was intercepted, then say it bounces off the player wo tried to intercept the ball. Was the ball ever possessed by the defender?

- What do you mean by "outside the endzone"? At the 2 yard line? Out of bounds?

Yes*

*However, there could be an instance where it is a touchback.

If a free kick is not touched by the receiving team, it is a dead ball and touchback once it touches the ground in the end zone

Yes

Touchback

Touchdown

As described, this is a touchdown.

As described, this is a touchdown.

It is illegal to bat or punch a loose ball towards their opponent's goal line. On a kickoff (free kick), the receiving team would be awarded the ball 1st and 10 after a 10 yard penalty assessed from the spot of the foul. On a punt (scrimmage kick) it would be first touching.

As noted above, it's an illegal bat and the receiving team on a free kick (kick off) and first touching on a scrimmage kick (punt)

Glad to help....

Welcome to the forum from Italy !!
Click to expand...
I am so honored by your answers!
Anyway, let’s get started.
  1. Obviously the fumble has to happen before the tackled player finishes at least with a knee on the ground, right? Correct
  2. Offensive player passes the ball to another, defender tries to intercept but the ball bounces off him and ends up out of bounds beyond the end zone. Is this still a touchback? No. As described this is an incomplete pass.
  3. Safety but the fumble has to happen before the knee on the ground, right? Correct
Kicks in endzone
  1. But is it a dead ball only if it touches the ground but can KT catch her on the endzone for a touchdown? Kickoff. Once an untouchted kick touches the ground the the end zone the ball is dead and it is a touchback.
  2. Instead a muffed kickoff by RT can KT score a touchdown either by catching it on the fly or by taking it off the ground? The ball is in air on the end zone or has grounded on endzone. The likelihood of the KT catching the kicked ball in the end zone before the ball hits the ground is zero (they have to run 65 yards)
  3. With a punt we have two situations, if the ball is not touched by RT, the KT can not score a touchdown neither catching it on the fly nor taking it to the ground always in endzone, right? Correct, neither can be a touchdown
  4. If a muffed punt goes in endzone, the KT can score a touchdown only if they catch it on air, or is it legal also if the muffed punt grounds in end zone? If it were to happen as described, touchdown for both. (extremely rare if caught in the air)
  5. So if the punt or kickoff are intentionally pushed with any part of the body by the KT, is it illegal? If it is batted towards the opponent's goal line.
  6. But if the punt or kickoff are near endzone, that is a muffed punt or kickoff, which has passed the 10 yards, can be recovered from the KT but not advanced. The KT can recover, but can never advance a muffed kick. But if one of the KT dives over the ball or accidentally kicks it and it ends in endzone, can the KT catch it to score a TD? Yes. Both in the air and on the ground? That is the ball would not have ended in endzone then without the impetus of the dive of KT, but the player diving would push, albeit unintentionally, the ball in endzone taking an advantage and allowing the KT to score a touchdown? Correct
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mrjack said:
I am so honored by your answers!
Anyway, let’s get started.
  1. Obviously the fumble has to happen before the tackled player finishes at least with a knee on the ground, right? Correct
  2. Offensive player passes the ball to another, defender tries to intercept but the ball bounces off him and ends up out of bounds beyond the end zone. Is this still a touchback? No. As described this is an incomplete pass.
  3. Safety but the fumble has to happen before the knee on the ground, right? Correct
Kicks in endzone
  1. But is it a dead ball only if it touches the ground but can KT catch her on the endzone for a touchdown? Kickoff. Once an untouchted kick touches the ground the the end zone the ball is dead and it is a touchback.
  2. Instead a muffed kickoff by RT can KT score a touchdown either by catching it on the fly or by taking it off the ground? The ball is in air on the end zone or has grounded on endzone. The likelihood of the KT catching the kicked ball in the end zone before the ball hits the ground is zero (they have to run 65 yards)
  3. With a punt we have two situations, if the ball is not touched by RT, the KT can not score a touchdown neither catching it on the fly nor taking it to the ground always in endzone, right? Correct, neither can be a touchdown
  4. If a muffed punt goes in endzone, the KT can score a touchdown only if they catch it on air, or is it legal also if the muffed punt grounds in end zone? If it were to happen as described, touchdown for both. (extremely rare if caught in the air)
  5. So if the punt or kickoff are intentionally pushed with any part of the body by the KT, is it illegal? If it is batted towards the opponent's goal line.
  6. But if the punt or kickoff are near endzone, that is a muffed punt or kickoff, which has passed the 10 yards, can be recovered from the KT but not advanced. The KT can recover, but can never advance a muffed kick. But if one of the KT dives over the ball or accidentally kicks it and it ends in endzone, can the KT catch it to score a TD? Yes. Both in the air and on the ground? That is the ball would not have ended in endzone then without the impetus of the dive of KT, but the player diving would push, albeit unintentionally, the ball in endzone taking an advantage and allowing the KT to score a touchdown? Correct
Click to expand...
The answers have been inserted (for format reasons) in Red.
 
@AllSports12
In a game I played in (not Varsity) with very strong winds to my back, I did a sky kick as instructed by the coach and ran straight down the middle of the field untouched (I was also a WR/FS) and caught my own kickoff in the endzone, it was not ruled a TD however, they signaled a touchback. When did a kickoff crossing the goal line become an automatic touchback at the high school level? This play occured in the mid 90's for reference.
 
simkon said:
@AllSports12
In a game I played in (not Varsity) with very strong winds to my back, I did a sky kick as instructed by the coach and ran straight down the middle of the field untouched (I was also a WR/FS) and caught my own kickoff in the endzone, it was not ruled a TD however, they signaled a touchback. When did a kickoff crossing the goal line become an automatic touchback at the high school level? This play occured in the mid 90's for reference.
Click to expand...
Nice try coach!

That rule was implemented in 1943
 
AllSports12 said:
Nice try coach!

That rule was implemented in 1943
Click to expand...
Impossible because in 1962 Mooney recovered a kickoff that went untouched in the endzone for a TD against Wilson. The rule for a touchback for any kickoff crossing the goal line couldn't have been implemented before 1963.
 
simkon said:
Impossible because in 1962 Mooney recovered a kickoff that went untouched in the endzone for a TD against Wilson. The rule for a touchback for any kickoff crossing the goal line couldn't have been implemented before 1963.
Click to expand...
In the last 5 years, I have seen a number of touchdowns erroneously awarded to the kicking team after they "recovered" the kick in the end zone. These clips make the rounds among officials' discussion groups and always end up with the question "what the hell were they thinking?" being asked.

The rule pertaining to free kicks entering the end zone was implemented in 1943, one year after the rule pertaining to scrimmage kicks entering the end zone was implemented. Ther other two were allowing ineligible linemen to recevie a ball handed forward behind the ine under certain conditions and Field Goals being permitted to be scored by any free kick.

This information comes direct from the NFHS. I have a list of every change ever made.
 
Last edited:
2018 in the NFL
An untouched kick is automatically a touchback when it touches the ground in the end zone and not recoverable by either team. But in my scenario since it did not touch the ground and I caught the kick in the air as it was coming down it would be a TD if it would have happened in the NFL only.

I know by the 1990s the NFHS rules definitely were that it would be a touchback as was ruled in my game. Just seems crazy the rule change was actually 1943.
 
a. What year did Ohio adopt National Federation rules for football?

b. Some time in the '90's I remember seeing K recover a kick in the back of the endzone for a TD, and it was correct.
 
simkon said:
2018 in the NFL
An untouched kick is automatically a touchback when it touches the ground in the end zone and not recoverable by either team. But in my scenario since it did not touch the ground and I caught the kick in the air as it was coming down it would be a TD if it would have happened in the NFL only.
Click to expand...
All it has to do is cross the plane of the goal line.
simkon said:
I know by the 1990s the NFHS rules definitely were that it would be a touchback as was ruled in my game. Just seems crazy the rule change was actually 1943.
Click to expand...
First NFHS Rule Book published was 1932. There are many, many rules that were written in the early days that remain n force today.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top