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  #1  
Old 10-01-13, 07:35 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Northeast District Athletic Board Boys/Girls Basketball Tournament Changes

Very interesting changes to the basketball format for the NE district:

Quote:
The Northeast District Athletic Board [NEDAB] of the Ohio High School Athletic Association [OHSAA] has approved the following changes in the format for Boys and Girls Basketball Tournaments:

-All four divisions [ Boys & Girls] will have the sectional games played at the site of the better seed. The site must be NFHS approved

-District semi-finals and finals will be played at a neutral site.

-Division I will also have blended sectional/districts, whereby a school has a choice between two districts based on their seed at the drawing.

Further information will be provided by the NEDAB. Questions or comments should be sent through your school administrator to President, Bill Schumacher.
http://nedab.org/content/boys-girls-...format-changes
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  #2  
Old 10-01-13, 08:36 PM
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That's very interesting.
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  #3  
Old 10-01-13, 08:53 PM
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One thing that I don't like about it is that games will be played "at the better seed."

Personally, I think the brackets should be labeled with who is the home team and stick with it whether an underdog wins or not. Seeding has too many politics. The real seeding takes place when teams place themselves on the bracket.

This would also get rid of top seeds that jump on a play-in bracket to get another game against a weaker team.
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  #4  
Old 10-01-13, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
One thing that I don't like about it is that games will be played "at the better seed."

Personally, I think the brackets should be labeled with who is the home team and stick with it whether an underdog wins or not. Seeding has too many politics. The real seeding takes place when teams place themselves on the bracket.

This would also get rid of top seeds that jump on a play-in bracket to get another game against a weaker team.
Disagree. I get what you are saying, but there is a problem with your conclusion. Some teams (such as the one I follow) who gain top seeds often will pass on the top part of the bracket (which includes byes) to be put in position to play games in the opening round. In these situations, Mentor finds themselves on the visitor side of the bracket pretty often. A 17-5 top seeded Mentor team thus could be a visitor against a 3-19 team. Why should the game be played on the road for the top seed?
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  #5  
Old 10-01-13, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardzfan1234 View Post
Disagree. I get what you are saying, but there is a problem with your conclusion. Some teams (such as the one I follow) who gain top seeds often will pass on the top part of the bracket (which includes byes) to be put in position to play games in the opening round. In these situations, Mentor finds themselves on the visitor side of the bracket pretty often. A 17-5 top seeded Mentor team thus could be a visitor against a 3-19 team. Why should the game be played on the road for the top seed?
The only reason the top team would be on the road is because they want a laugher. That's a choice that the top team should have to make. The top team earns a bye, they should take it.

Just to clarify, the top team would still be at home for their first game against the bottom seed. The next game would be a road game against a little higher seed.
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  #6  
Old 10-01-13, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
The only reason the top team would be on the road is because they want a laugher. That's a choice that the top team should have to make. The top team earns a bye, they should take it.

Just to clarify, the top team would still be at home for their first game against the bottom seed. The next game would be a road game against a little higher seed.
The top seed earned the right to have first choice of where and how often they want to play. They shouldn't have to feel they have to take a bye if they don't want one. The reason Mentor doesn't take byes historically is because it is an incredibly low risk game that allows them to stay sharp and playing a game every few days.

As for your second point, look at the link I posted. Mentor was on the bottom side of the bracket in every game - including the first. They would have been on the road for the first two games against the lowest seeds at the tournament.
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  #7  
Old 10-01-13, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
One thing that I don't like about it is that games will be played "at the better seed."

Personally, I think the brackets should be labeled with who is the home team and stick with it whether an underdog wins or not. Seeding has too many politics. The real seeding takes place when teams place themselves on the bracket.

This would also get rid of top seeds that jump on a play-in bracket to get another game against a weaker team.
I think cardz is overlooking this point because Mentor has been a top seed in recent years. There's go to be some interesting votes going on for the 4/5/6 seeds this year.
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  #8  
Old 10-01-13, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardzfan1234 View Post
The top seed earned the right to have first choice of where and how often they want to play. They shouldn't have to feel they have to take a bye if they don't want one. The reason Mentor doesn't take byes historically is because it is an incredibly low risk game that allows them to stay sharp and playing a game every few days.

As for your second point, look at the link I posted. Mentor was on the bottom side of the bracket in every game - including the first. They would have been on the road for the first two games against the lowest seeds at the tournament.
IMO, I'm not going to look at individual cases. I would rather look at the tournament as a whole. Every year on here people talk about regional voting and league voting for certain teams much higher than they should have been voted. The voting is inaccurate and somewhat unfair way of seeding teams. Now those seedings will be used to give home games to teams that may not have earned them.

The top seeded team would never be on the bottom of the bracket for their first game unless they choose to be the visitors. Afterall, they get the first pick of the bracket. For whatever reason, Mentor wanted to be the visitor for every game.
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  #9  
Old 10-01-13, 10:11 PM
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I don't think Mentor intentionally picked the visitor side. I think by passing the spot with the bye, they place themselves in the "lower" (visitor) side of a bracket. Look below for other examples of other NEO teams that passed up byes. All of them are visitors:

http://brackets.ohsaa.org/bracket.as...ts=8497&not=12 - In this scenario, Hoover (No. 3 seed) is the visitor against 11 seed.

http://brackets.ohsaa.org/bracket.as...ts=8495&not=12 - Brunswick (4 seed) is visitor against 12 seed

http://brackets.ohsaa.org/bracket.as...ts=8501&not=12 - CVCA (1 seed) is visitor against 12 seed
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  #10  
Old 10-02-13, 07:21 AM
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Why not set the brackets ahead of time, ala the NCAA tournament

1) vs 16)
2 vs 15)

etc...

If there are 13 teams, the first 3 seeds get byes
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  #11  
Old 10-02-13, 12:52 PM
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Sean O'Toole strikes again! Always wants it easy. No change should happen until Iggy and Ed's are in the same district!
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  #12  
Old 10-02-13, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGEMF View Post
Why not set the brackets ahead of time, ala the NCAA tournament

1) vs 16)
2 vs 15)

etc...

If there are 13 teams, the first 3 seeds get byes
Bad idea for the very reasons Yappi addressed above. There are politics in the voting process and setting up in advanced by seed would be a problem. I like the system as it is in regards to coaches voting for seeds and then the seeds help determine the order in which a team gets to choose their placement.

Let's say you have team A (18-4), B (16-6) and C (17-5). Team C, an independent, played by far the toughest schedule and are widely considered to be the strongest team of the three. But teams A and B finished at the top of the ABCD conference. More than half of the teams in the ABCD conference are voting in this district. These coaches tend to "favor their own." In this case, even though Team C is seeded third - other teams (including Team B) will likely avoid them when they decide where to be placed on the bracket. So seeding is an important start, but it shouldn't be the final result as it is not done with unbiased folks.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-13, 09:45 PM
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Solid changes and the blended districts works nice for better competitive balance. Additional home games for some teams is also a good move. More people will attend.
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  #14  
Old 10-11-13, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
Solid changes and the blended districts works nice for better competitive balance. Additional home games for some teams is also a good move. More people will attend.
I am sure you guys love it. Ignatius/Eds have the easiest road with this new proposal pushed through behind the scenes (shocker).

Competitive balance would work out better if Garfield Hts went to your blended district and WGH went to Akron. Garfield Hts is actually a couple minutes closer to Brecksville in comparison to Solon. Grafton is 10 minutes further than Solon but keep in mind they have Euclid as a choice too (which is 10 minutes further). Mentor to Solon is the same distance as Garfield to Grafton...

Right now it isn't balanced at all. Solon/Euclid is the best blended district by far.

Everyone that complained about Mentor's "easy" district got their way. Like I have said before, Eds somehow escaped this criticism on here and elsewhere and now they have the easiest road yet again.
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  #15  
Old 10-11-13, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentorGrad2002 View Post
Everyone that complained about Mentor's "easy" district got their way. Like I have said before, Eds somehow escaped this criticism on here and elsewhere and now they have the easiest road yet again.
So, after reading several days of your harangue, it appears that the only complaint about the result is that Garfield should be in Brecksville. Does that about cover it?
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  #16  
Old 10-11-13, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
So, after reading several days of your harangue, it appears that the only complaint about the result is that Garfield should be in Brecksville. Does that about cover it?
The districts should be balanced. Garfield is part of it. They are closer to Brecksville vs Solon anyways.

Of course we know that won't happen.

That isn't my only complaint either. The whole process was done backwards. All OHSAA members should have a voice instead of a select few brokering it behind the scenes (led by your bball coach who is a district rep and didn't tell anyone what was going on). The fricken coaches found out from newspapers.

I am sure you guys would be thrilled if Mentor dictated a change and Ignatuis had no knowledge of it. Sure that would go over very well...

When coaches find out from newspapers and AD's simply get a call saying "this is how it will be" it is wrong. Especially from an organization where members should all be equal and have a voice. Shouldn't just be a select few.

PS: You guys threw a fit for years on here over Mentor's easy road. So I don't want to hear about how I am complaining from people who did the same. (while leaving out Eds' easy road for some reason) At least Mentor didn't broker a deal to get their way. They took the district they were handed the last time around.

Last edited by MentorGrad2002; 10-11-13 at 08:18 AM..
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  #17  
Old 10-11-13, 08:06 AM
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Hmmmmm...

Some one on this forum (not this necessarly this thread) thought I was ...
Off my rocker...
Out of my tree...
Have loose screws...
Lost my marbles...
or just generally nuts!


Higher seed hosts sectional game!

:>---
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  #18  
Old 10-11-13, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentorGrad2002 View Post
That isn't my only complaint either.
Yes, I know that. My question (simply, succinctly stated) inquired whether Garfield's location was your only complaint about the RESULT. It appears that it is.
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Old 10-11-13, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Yes, I know that. My question (simply, succinctly stated) inquired whether Garfield's location was your only complaint about the RESULT. It appears that it is.
The result is based off of the process which was flawed and left this in the hands of a few select schools. When in an equal rights organization, this shouldn't be the case.

So like I said, breaking it down to 1 complaint is wrong. The whole process is flawed.

Also it can be argued that WGH belongs in Canton, but they are far from everyone and I haven't looked at the distances for them. EDIT: About the same for Copley/Canton and Solon/Euclid. 10 minutes closer or further depending on the comparisons.

I've said all along that districts should be about schools from like areas. In this system, the districts grab from a way bigger geographical area which doesn't really fit the definition of a district. Not a fan of the way bigger pool. It would be easier to swallow though if Eds/Ignatius didn't get the favored draw after O'Toole was part of the process while leaving others in the dark

Last edited by MentorGrad2002; 10-11-13 at 08:42 AM..
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Old 10-11-13, 08:40 AM
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So, in other words, your principal complaint about the RESULT (not the process) is that Garfield should be at Brecksville. Got it.
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  #21  
Old 10-11-13, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
So, in other words, your principal complaint about the RESULT (not the process) is that Garfield should be at Brecksville. Got it.
Spin it however you want to but there are more complaints than just 1. Who cares if you are trying to make it out to be simple based on your wording. Garfield was just one example. There are ways to even it out and still base it on location. But that would make it more fair for all instead of the easiest road for Eds/Ignatius.

FYI thoughts on the definition of districts and how they should be done kind of relates to the result as well...

I don't like anything about the process or result really. It isn't just one thing. O'Toole got his way though so no surprise that you have no complaints.
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Old 10-11-13, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MentorGrad2002 View Post
There are ways to even it out and still base it on location.
Such as? Specifics, not generalities...who goes where?
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  #23  
Old 10-11-13, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Such as? Specifics, not generalities...who goes where?
Garfield to Brecksville
WGH to Akron are 2.

THat would be a very nice start.

Or they could have kept the old districts. Shift IGnatius to be with Eds. Move WGH to Canton. Move Cleveland Hts or Shaker to Euclid. Solon is left with the other plus Garfield Hts. Then you wouldn't have this mess where teams further apart are in the same blended district.

I also like set districts with a closer pack of teams better for growth in rivalries at that level. Not the same with teams flip flopping back and forth between 2 locations shaking things up all the time.

Sorry but I am not going to map out 40 schools distances to districts to appease you in an argument. Even if I did do this, you would just come back with some snarky one liner which would make the work worthless. We've been through this before. There is no point.

Last edited by MentorGrad2002; 10-11-13 at 09:18 AM..
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  #24  
Old 10-11-13, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGEMF View Post
Why not set the brackets ahead of time, ala the NCAA tournament

1) vs 16)
2 vs 15)

etc...

If there are 13 teams, the first 3 seeds get byes
I wonder if eventually this will lead to the OHSAA rating basketball teams with a Harbin-like system, and taking the seeding process out of the hands of the coaches altogether.
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Old 10-11-13, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by goshengophers View Post
I wonder if eventually this will lead to the OHSAA rating basketball teams with a Harbin-like system, and taking the seeding process out of the hands of the coaches altogether.
This actually makes sense. One of the criticisms of the Harbin System is that the sample size (number of games) is too small to be statistically reliable. With 22 games, perhaps basketball is closer to a reliable size. I don't remember from statistics classes how to determine proper sample size.

Certainly it seems that since everyone gets into the basketball tournament, the Harbin System would be as good or better than a coaches vote.
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Old 10-11-13, 12:04 PM
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After reading all of the comments on this thread subject on this thread, I will also express my thoughts on the situation, for whatever its worth. It appears that the NEDAB adopted what was proposed to them by the district reps & ran with it, w/o any details or planning. These board members are supposedly bright & experienced educators, obviously with little or maybe no apparent experience in sports. These people are making serious decisions that affect their member schools, without any input from its member schools. I don't think that is the true democratic way of running an athletic organization or any organization, for that matter. It should be open & transparent to its members. The Board had 3 years to figure it out & yet they announce it through the media, not to the member schools, w/o any details or input from its members. This whole proccedure is turning out to be a total fiasco & I assure you many more problems are coming up before it is totally implemented, if at all. It almost looks like the problems our country is having implementing the new healthcare policy: NO DETAILS & LOTS OF CONFUSION. Having been a longtime fan of the Cleveland area HS basketball scene, I am very disappointed in what is happening with our playoff system & can honestly say that, based on all I read on this thread & conversations with the coaches & AD's I have spoken to, this new plan is very unpopular with most all affected by it & all it has done is alienate the major group of member school's athletic departmens. I just hope it is not too late to reconsider what has been proposed & go back to the drawing board & develop a detailed plan that inclues the member schools input & then implement it with the blessins of its members.
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  #27  
Old 10-11-13, 01:01 PM
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Not sure what the end result should be. State-wide seeding? Rank Top 16 teams and give them each a District and build around that?

Doesn't this change put Mentor and Ignatius in same situation (Solon/Euclid blend). And that is unfair how?

As for Eds, what can I say. The westside has less overall bball talent. Not sure if shifting schools west is the answer because wouldn't that involve shifting other schools east? Creating "balanced" districts across a larger region just become more and more difficult. The two district blend is a good start, no?
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  #28  
Old 10-11-13, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
Not sure what the end result should be. State-wide seeding? Rank Top 16 teams and give them each a District and build around that?

Doesn't this change put Mentor and Ignatius in same situation (Solon/Euclid blend). And that is unfair how?

As for Eds, what can I say. The westside has less overall bball talent. Not sure if shifting schools west is the answer because wouldn't that involve shifting other schools east? Creating "balanced" districts across a larger region just become more and more difficult. The two district blend is a good start, no?
St Ignatius got moved to the Brecksville/Grafton district. All the other powers from Solon stayed behind with WGH also back. And Mentor, Brush, Glenville etc on top of that....
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  #29  
Old 10-11-13, 01:24 PM
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Ahhh, missed that. Thanks. At least it is a start for moving more talent west. Ignatius is westside afterall./
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  #30  
Old 10-11-13, 02:53 PM
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I like the Harbin idea for seeding basketball teams. Takes the sometimes dubious coaches vote out of the seeding process.
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