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  #61  
Old 10-27-12, 07:29 PM
warriors378 warriors378 is offline
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Originally Posted by thewho View Post
Wow... these numbers blow my mind. I mean seriously, think about it. Could you imagine having 177 more kids to chose from. Wow!!!! I am willing to bet you could find 10-15 nice extra players. I don't know... but to me, that is a heck of an advantage. I feel for a school like South, but I see Salem only has 7 more girls, and Minerva is not far off so I kind of feel for them. I just think it is a major difference. That is my opinion.

I saw Kasson put at one time that schools like South, and maybe Kasson mentioned another one that schools like South only have good years once in a long while (made a statement something of that nature). Well heck... now I see why if you are the smallest by far in your league!
West Branch is 5th in conference in girl's enrollment, but you don't see that being a factor for them. If you have good tradition and a good stable program, then it doesn't matter how many girls you have IMHO. Because how many girl sports is there in the winter? Three I think, and all of them are limited amount on team....so basketball shouldn't be hard to get players once you get a stable program that is progressing, because the other two are bowling and swimming/diving, which is not too much competition to basketball in the general scheme of top sports...
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  #62  
Old 10-27-12, 08:54 PM
Kasson Kasson is offline
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Originally Posted by thewho View Post
Wow... these numbers blow my mind. I mean seriously, think about it. Could you imagine having 177 more kids to chose from. Wow!!!! I am willing to bet you could find 10-15 nice extra players. I don't know... but to me, that is a heck of an advantage. I feel for a school like South, but I see Salem only has 7 more girls, and Minerva is not far off so I kind of feel for them. I just think it is a major difference. That is my opinion.

I saw Kasson put at one time that schools like South, and maybe Kasson mentioned another one that schools like South only have good years once in a long while (made a statement something of that nature). Well heck... now I see why if you are the smallest by far in your league!
thewho --- someone else made the comment that South had no tradition in girls basketball and I disagreed in a post awhile back. South had some good teams with the Ridenbaugh (? name and spelling) girl and of course the most recent run with Robinson & Co. So much of sustaining a good high school program is also having a solid youth program. Minerva has won a couple of league titles and is competitve much like South. Salem has a program like West Branch where they have advanced deep into the state tourney in the past. No tradition is where a program has no relevance whatsoever much like Alliance. The only year that I can remember Alliance having a solid team was the Tierney Allen's senior year.
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  #63  
Old 10-27-12, 09:05 PM
thewho thewho is offline
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Originally Posted by warriors378 View Post
West Branch is 5th in conference in girl's enrollment, but you don't see that being a factor for them. If you have good tradition and a good stable program, then it doesn't matter how many girls you have IMHO. Because how many girl sports is there in the winter? Three I think, and all of them are limited amount on team....so basketball shouldn't be hard to get players once you get a stable program that is progressing, because the other two are bowling and swimming/diving, which is not too much competition to basketball in the general scheme of top sports...
I don't debate what your saying... But I also think the community plays a role in in tradition with a strong school system, parent support, and backing. WB appears to have that, I don't think we can say that for ALOT OF GIRLS BASKETBALL. Alot of schools, communities, even parents of players view girls basketball as a secondary or almost like a extra actitivity. Again... I don't think that at WB. WB to me is what like a community like strasburg is to softball. No matter what the gender, they endorse their strength. Even when some of these schools have strong years, they still don't have the backing and support.

THough you may be trying to start a tradition, I think we are coming of age that 3 sport atheletes in all males and females are becoming harder and harder, especially at a smaller school. I am sure good players at WB quit basketball to concentrate on Softball or Volleyball or Tennis. Or how many atheletes of the female gender play VB, take the winter off, then start back up with softball. WB to me is a different community with a different attitude compared to alot. Heck, just look down the street, you have 303 girls in alliance, and they struggle, and I credit that to what I pretty much have said in this email that WB has and ALliance doesnt. Again.. my opinion.
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  #64  
Old 10-28-12, 12:46 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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Originally Posted by thewho View Post
McCal where they heck you getting your stats!!!!!

I could tell by just attending games and the fact they were playing DI tourny it is more then 20 students. They almost doubled the smallest NBC school (south). Also higher number then all other NBC schools. Hm...
I was off on the divider between D1 and D2, otherwise my point stands. It's not THAT big of a difference and they're still far smaller than many local D-1's.....

Louisville 419
Perry 568
Hoover 623
McKinley 680
GlenOak 695
Jackson 709

Just to name a few...
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  #65  
Old 10-28-12, 08:04 AM
thewho thewho is offline
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Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
I was off on the divider between D1 and D2, otherwise my point stands. It's not THAT big of a difference and they're still far smaller than many local D-1's.....

Louisville 419
Perry 568
Hoover 623
McKinley 680
GlenOak 695
Jackson 709

Just to name a few...
I see your point... But how Louisville may feel in the DI tourny, is probably how the Souths, Salems, and Minerva's of the world feel about playing against them. Either way, from what I have seen of about 80% of the NBC teams, despite how many girls they have, all the games I have viewed kids all compete, and that is all you can ask.

I think alot of people that post on this thread for the NBC seem to somewhat have more "sense" on topics, and I mean that about all posters whether I agree with them or not. I do though feel, the more students you have, despite the tradition, you are at an advantage. Even just 75-100 students more is alot!!!

I would also ask, what justifies a tradition??? Consistent winning though not winning the league, winning 1 more game then lost to having a winning record most if not all your years??? I think every coach wants to start a tradition, but as I said before, your backing, community, and parent support plays a bigger role then one coach. Trust me... I seen it when my kids played at GlenOak. I wish not to say the sport, but I remember a coach who tried and tried and tried, and my wife/I and maybe 3-5 other sets of parents supported what they were trying to do, and we are a huge school. However, other parents of other players were no where around, and at times, you would have thought the school personal could have cared less about this particular sport. Again... these are my opinions. And to go back to W. Branch, that is a unique tradition out there. I attended the Marlington vs. WB game last year at WB, wow... What a ATMOSPHERE for girls basketball and what a SUPPORT!!! Trust me, it makes a world of difference!
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  #66  
Old 10-28-12, 09:35 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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Tradition in a program makes a world of difference. Community support does as well. Both come with winning however, so a coach/team has to learn how to win consistently to build either typically.
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  #67  
Old 10-28-12, 11:58 AM
thewho thewho is offline
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Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
Tradition in a program makes a world of difference. Community support does as well. Both come with winning however, so a coach/team has to learn how to win consistently to build either typically.
I agree. Also, lets not forget, you need talent! Yes, in the Jr. High and youth you can help develope talent, again... key word "help", but in the end, you need talent.
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  #68  
Old 10-29-12, 07:20 AM
chocolatecity chocolatecity is offline
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Originally Posted by Kasson View Post


The only year that I can remember Alliance having a solid team was the Tierney Allen's senior year.
Alliance had some very good teams lead by Angee Robinson (Cincinatti) in the early '90..even beat Sue Davis's McKinley team....then again in the latter part of the '90 led by Lorressa Williamsom ( All-Ohioian and POY in Fed) who beat that South team led by Ridenbaugh you were talking about..
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  #69  
Old 10-29-12, 09:23 AM
warriors378 warriors378 is offline
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Originally Posted by chocolatecity View Post
Alliance had some very good teams lead by Angee Robinson (Cincinatti) in the early '90..even beat Sue Davis's McKinley team....then again in the latter part of the '90 led by Lorressa Williamsom ( All-Ohioian and POY in Fed) who beat that South team led by Ridenbaugh you were talking about..
Now I can understand your explaining of being mad at me for saying maybe they can "FINALLY" get some stability at Alliance. Sorry that not a lot of us have a history breakdown of every NBC school, especially before they entered the NBC.

I've been following NBC basketball since the very late 1990's/very early 2000's, and can't remember Alliance having that many decent seasons in girl's basketball since joining NBC. Granted, That's only like 8 year now. But one out of eight seasons isn't stable enough for my definition of stability. Especially when there are bordering school districts with open enrollment.

I do believe Alliance will win a game this year. Just not sure which one at this point yet.
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  #70  
Old 10-29-12, 12:26 PM
TheBranch79 TheBranch79 is offline
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Originally Posted by warriors378 View Post
Now I can understand your explaining of being mad at me for saying maybe they can "FINALLY" get some stability at Alliance. Sorry that not a lot of us have a history breakdown of every NBC school, especially before they entered the NBC.

I've been following NBC basketball since the very late 1990's/very early 2000's, and can't remember Alliance having that many decent seasons in girl's basketball since joining NBC. Granted, That's only like 8 year now. But one out of eight seasons isn't stable enough for my definition of stability. Especially when there are bordering school districts with open enrollment.

I do believe Alliance will win a game this year. Just not sure which one at this point yet.
They will beat Marlington, Buddy at work says girls are dropping like flies
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  #71  
Old 10-29-12, 01:04 PM
AnonMystery AnonMystery is offline
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Is there anyway we can help this young lady that goes to Marlington that got in trouble? Just a sad situation really. She probably got some scholarships too.. who knows what will happen with those.
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  #72  
Old 10-29-12, 05:55 PM
thewho thewho is offline
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Is there anyway we can help this young lady that goes to Marlington that got in trouble? Just a sad situation really. She probably got some scholarships too.. who knows what will happen with those.
I see what your saying... though having a school issue is one thing, have a school and criminal issue is another thing. I think one thing not playing in her favor is her age. If she was 17 and in the juvy system, I think the end result would have been different, and maybe none of us would have known unless word of mouth, not news paper. I think the school is also backed in a corner with the knowing of this issue to the public, plus the degree of the offense. I really wish this young lady could play, but I think there may be more behind this then what I, or anyone may know. Sad case!
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  #73  
Old 10-29-12, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBranch79 View Post
They will beat Marlington, Buddy at work says girls are dropping like flies
OK... I know I have made some buddy references and I am being legit, are you joking or are you serious? My buddy's daughter played a little bit last year, and still thinks they will be semi competitive. They do I believe have 6th man and two starters back, or are they gone. If so, he didn't tell me that.
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  #74  
Old 10-29-12, 07:57 PM
TheBranch79 TheBranch79 is offline
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Originally Posted by thewho View Post
OK... I know I have made some buddy references and I am being legit, are you joking or are you serious? My buddy's daughter played a little bit last year, and still thinks they will be semi competitive. They do I believe have 6th man and two starters back, or are they gone. If so, he didn't tell me that.
From what I have heard, They have 1 Starter back, Obviously Chambers and Hogan gone. Reed Graduation and then there was a senior post who was a good soccer player who isn't playing. He said best freshman quit who may or may not have been able to help them this year.
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  #75  
Old 10-30-12, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBranch79 View Post
From what I have heard, They have 1 Starter back, Obviously Chambers and Hogan gone. Reed Graduation and then there was a senior post who was a good soccer player who isn't playing. He said best freshman quit who may or may not have been able to help them this year.
Your right... heard the same thing today. Buddy's daughter is still playing. I think they may win 2-4 games if that.
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  #76  
Old 11-02-12, 09:33 PM
74Leps 74Leps is offline
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Louisville may grow in population by about 5000 in the next 5-6 years because of Chesapeake's multi-million dollar investment in town. Then maybe they could look at the Fed again.
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  #77  
Old 11-05-12, 11:51 AM
gym rat gym rat is offline
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The debate over enrollment figures and proper leagueaffiliation may be contentious but can be rationalized mathematically. Theenrollment figure and affiliation of the NBC’s largest school has been calledinto question.

First, let us examine how the schools in the NBC stack upvs. Louisville’s enrollment; then we will look at how Louisville’s enrollment comparesto each team in the Federal League.

Each NBC schools enrollment as a percentage/ratio ofLouisville’s (419 girls).

School Enrollment Percentage ofLouisville

Alliance 303 .723

Carrollton 298 .711

Marlington 290 .692

West Branch 283 .675

Minerva 260 .621

Salem 249 .593

Canton South 242 .578

League Ave. 275 .656

Louisville’s enrollment is 1.5 times larger than the league average andis more than 25% larger than its second largest competitor. In order to realizethe impact of enrollment one could take a look at the roster and cross outevery 3rd Louisville player, that is approximately what the otherschools in the league are playing with enrollment-wise. The Leopards have atremendous advantage over ALL NBC schools before practice even begins.

Now let’s take Louisville’s perspectiveif they entered the Fed. Take a look at Louisville’s percentage of each of theFederal League schools’ enrollment.

School Enrollment Percentage of ListedFed School

Jackson 709 .591

Glen Oak 695 .603

McKinley 680 .616

Hoover 623 .672

Boardman 591 .709

Perry 568 .738

Lake 436 .961

League Ave. 615 .681

In the Federal League, Louisville would be the conference’s smallestschool…but not by much. Their enrollment figures are more in line with theother members and provide consistency with OHSAA divisional assignments.Louisville is closer to the league average in the Fed and would have acompetitor nearly the same size (Lake).They would fall within 70% enrollment of3 Federal League teams while in comparison only 2 NBC schools are within thatrange of Louisville. Deeper evidence of Louisville’s enrollment similaritieswith the Fed can be found in the fact that should Louisville join the Federalit would be within 60% comparative enrollment with 6 other schools while only 5NBC teams are within that range of Louisville.

No single statistical area is eye-popping however in comparison allstatistical ratios point to Louisville’s proper alignment with the FederalLeague.

Louisville is an OHSAA division above EVERY Northeastern Buckeye Conferenceschool in ALL major sport (boys and girls); while they are, in the eyes of theOHSAA, more aligned with the Fed for classification purposes at this time. Asan earlier poster noted the enrollment in Louisville schools is heading upward.The poster suggested a move in 5 years, why wait? The Fed only has 7 schoolsnow. What if Green or another school applies? (The Green AD has alreadyapproached the BOE for a major overhaul of athletic facilities and programs. Doyou think they might be positioning themselves for a change in affiliation?)What if the NBC reorganizes when they get fed up with Louisville’s burgeoningnumbers? Louisville might get left out. The enrollment in Louisville is rightand the facilities are either top-notch or recently refurbished, the OHSAA hasthem divisionally aligned and they have outgrown the contracting enrollments ofthe NBC.
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  #78  
Old 11-05-12, 04:15 PM
dig it dig it is offline
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gym rat, nice work. It would be interesting to see how Louisville would fare against the rest of the league in all sports if you were to take away their 3rd,6th,9th,12th,etc players. I'm sure they would be competitive, but we would not be handing them the all-sports trophy nearly every year.

It's all speculation of course, and doesn't change their view from the top.....but it would be nice.....if just once, you could hear leap fans admit they sometimes win games or matches simply because they have 150% more student/athletes to choose from!
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  #79  
Old 11-05-12, 08:46 PM
TheBranch79 TheBranch79 is offline
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They do have an advantage, but in high school sports its all about the crop you get through.

I dont really care either way. They would get destroyed in the Federal league because of their size. They are in a bad spot enrollment wise, to bad there isnt a solid third conference in stark county. Its just a microcosm of what is going on in the State with competitive balance, not just here in our back yards
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  #80  
Old 11-06-12, 04:56 PM
dig it dig it is offline
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If Malvern would hypothetically be combined with either Minerva or Carrollton, those two schools would have still been smaller than Louisville. Imagine either school recently in football or boys basketball! Not so sure how much help either would get in girls sports, but larger #s certainly wouldn't hurt.
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  #81  
Old 11-06-12, 10:00 PM
TheBranch79 TheBranch79 is offline
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Originally Posted by dig it View Post
If Malvern would hypothetically be combined with either Minerva or Carrollton, those two schools would have still been smaller than Louisville. Imagine either school recently in football or boys basketball! Not so sure how much help either would get in girls sports, but larger #s certainly wouldn't hurt.
Not sure what the point is here, just adding Div.4 teams into the mix....If you combine Louisville and Marlington together you would get 709, the exact number of Jackson girls.
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  #82  
Old 11-06-12, 10:41 PM
dig it dig it is offline
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79, You talked about it being the crop coming thru. I was only using a hypothetical situation as to how even just a few additional #s would have greatly improved those already good teams. Malvern has had very good athletes lately...adding them to either Minerva or Carrollton would make Louisville the underdog.

The only thing I'm trying to prove...Louisville's programs are better, most of the time, only because they are much bigger. They win by #s. Big fish in a little pond, might humble them some to seek bigger waters! I don't want them out the NBC....just wished they would acknowledge the advantage of their situation.

Last edited by dig it; 11-08-12 at 12:59 PM..
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  #83  
Old 11-08-12, 12:54 PM
inleftfld inleftfld is offline
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The issue is not with the girls athletic programs in Louisville. Louisville will remain in the NBC as long as it benefits the boys athletic programs. The adminstration will not allow the girls to play in one league and the boys programs to play in another. The girls athletic coaches, parents, or players have no say in the league they play in even though they recognize the disparity. The girls to not control this issue... the boys do.
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  #84  
Old 11-09-12, 11:26 AM
leopard83 leopard83 is offline
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Originally Posted by gym rat View Post
The debate over enrollment figures and proper leagueaffiliation may be contentious but can be rationalized mathematically. Theenrollment figure and affiliation of the NBC’s largest school has been calledinto question.

First, let us examine how the schools in the NBC stack upvs. Louisville’s enrollment; then we will look at how Louisville’s enrollment comparesto each team in the Federal League.

Each NBC schools enrollment as a percentage/ratio ofLouisville’s (419 girls).

School Enrollment Percentage ofLouisville

Alliance 303 .723

Carrollton 298 .711

Marlington 290 .692

West Branch 283 .675

Minerva 260 .621

Salem 249 .593

Canton South 242 .578

League Ave. 275 .656

Louisville’s enrollment is 1.5 times larger than the league average andis more than 25% larger than its second largest competitor. In order to realizethe impact of enrollment one could take a look at the roster and cross outevery 3rd Louisville player, that is approximately what the otherschools in the league are playing with enrollment-wise. The Leopards have atremendous advantage over ALL NBC schools before practice even begins.

Now let’s take Louisville’s perspectiveif they entered the Fed. Take a look at Louisville’s percentage of each of theFederal League schools’ enrollment.

School Enrollment Percentage of ListedFed School

Jackson 709 .591

Glen Oak 695 .603

McKinley 680 .616

Hoover 623 .672

Boardman 591 .709

Perry 568 .738

Lake 436 .961

League Ave. 615 .681

In the Federal League, Louisville would be the conference’s smallestschool…but not by much. Their enrollment figures are more in line with theother members and provide consistency with OHSAA divisional assignments.Louisville is closer to the league average in the Fed and would have acompetitor nearly the same size (Lake).They would fall within 70% enrollment of3 Federal League teams while in comparison only 2 NBC schools are within thatrange of Louisville. Deeper evidence of Louisville’s enrollment similaritieswith the Fed can be found in the fact that should Louisville join the Federalit would be within 60% comparative enrollment with 6 other schools while only 5NBC teams are within that range of Louisville.

No single statistical area is eye-popping however in comparison allstatistical ratios point to Louisville’s proper alignment with the FederalLeague.

Louisville is an OHSAA division above EVERY Northeastern Buckeye Conferenceschool in ALL major sport (boys and girls); while they are, in the eyes of theOHSAA, more aligned with the Fed for classification purposes at this time. Asan earlier poster noted the enrollment in Louisville schools is heading upward.The poster suggested a move in 5 years, why wait? The Fed only has 7 schoolsnow. What if Green or another school applies? (The Green AD has alreadyapproached the BOE for a major overhaul of athletic facilities and programs. Doyou think they might be positioning themselves for a change in affiliation?)What if the NBC reorganizes when they get fed up with Louisville’s burgeoningnumbers? Louisville might get left out. The enrollment in Louisville is rightand the facilities are either top-notch or recently refurbished, the OHSAA hasthem divisionally aligned and they have outgrown the contracting enrollments ofthe NBC.
Louisville would compete in the Federal League year in and year out, look at these numbers for the past (3) years: Wins/losses vs Fed teams
Team Wins Losses
Glenoak 2 1
Lake 2 1
Perry 2 2 includes a 1 point loss last yr at Perry
Jackson 1 1
North Canton 0 1
Boardman 1 0

Thats a 8-6 record for the smallest "Fed " school - bottom line - I'm tired of hearing how the Souths and Salems of the NBC are at a disadvantage!! Louisville has 177 more girls than South yet Glenoak has (276) more and Jackson have (290) more girls than Louisville. You pointed out the league averages: South (smallest school) is only 33 below the avg / Louisville would be almost 200 below!! Talent development is the main reason behind any programs success. Louisville was in the Federal League before and I would love for them to go back!
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  #85  
Old 11-09-12, 11:54 AM
dig it dig it is offline
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83, See what happens to your "talent development" after 5 or 10 years of.500 ball. Pretty soon not only do your kids start doubting, but also the coaching staff. Shortly after that, kids quit, coaches start looking over their shoulders wondering how long they will have a job.....fingers start to point in all different directions...belief wanes...losses start to pile up....all of a sudden the "program" is in trouble. IF, at this point, you still have talent development, then you will truly have a solid program...MUCH easier said than done!!

It's easy to judge from atop the heap. Be careful what you wish for...you may not like walking in our shoes!
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  #86  
Old 11-09-12, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dig it View Post
83, See what happens to your "talent development" after 5 or 10 years of.500 ball. Pretty soon not only do your kids start doubting, but also the coaching staff. Shortly after that, kids quit, coaches start looking over their shoulders wondering how long they will have a job.....fingers start to point in all different directions...belief wanes...losses start to pile up....all of a sudden the "program" is in trouble. IF, at this point, you still have talent development, then you will truly have a solid program...MUCH easier said than done!!

It's easy to judge from atop the heap. Be careful what you wish for...you may not like walking in our shoes!
Fair point but you also forget that playing against Federal League competition will also make you better - Many games last year our starters only played half the game because of the score. Playing 14+ games against D1 schools would definitely prepare us for the tourney, make our girls more competetive...to the point that they would be more like .700 ball
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Old 11-09-12, 12:39 PM
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83, That is definitely true...if....your program can handle the initial losing(some may be embarrassing butt kickings). The proof would be in those 5-10 years mentioned above and how you community can handle that. The Leopard football team is struggling with mediocrity in the NBC now(one only has to read about the problems with booster club #s falling)....imagine if they were the small fish in the large Federal pond! As of right now they are only losing, not losing by large scores. Playing up is much easier said than done. There are no easy nights when you are one of the smaller schools...you have to battle every night....play within 90% of perfect on certain nights to even stay in the game!! Can Louisville do this.....I have no idea. You've been a long time now as the largest school in the NBC, all I can say is, you would have to learn how to be average(or less), before you can become great again. I'm not sure your community is "wired" that way. You've been winning for a long time now!
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  #88  
Old 11-09-12, 04:59 PM
Kasson Kasson is offline
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digit -- I think Carrollton is on the verge of making its prescence known once again in the NBC. They have a couple of solid classes that will add to their depth besides a formidable starting five.
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  #89  
Old 11-09-12, 10:17 PM
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Kasson, Carrollton should be able to compete for the title. Chemistry may be their biggest hurdle. Girls have to readjust the chemistry nearly every year as Freshmen and Sophs are thrown in with upper clansmen.( In boys sports this doesn't happen nearly as much.) The Warriors should be skilled enough...if we can keep the TOs down....and keep certain people out of foul trouble, it could be one of our best years. Time will tell!
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  #90  
Old 11-13-12, 12:09 AM
WARRIORS_94 WARRIORS_94 is offline
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Join Date: 10-13-01
Location: Alliance
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West Branch Lady Warriors Schedule

URSULINE
CANTON SOUTH
@ Canfield
@ Louisville
CARDINAL MOONEY
MARLINGTON
@ Salem
Richmond Heights (Hoover Holiday Invitational)
@ Carrollton
UNITED
MINERVA
@ Alliance
@Canton South
@ East Liverpool
LOUISVILLE
@Marlington
SALEM
CARROLLTON
@Minerva
ALLIANCE
AUSTINTOWN FITCH
SOUTH RANGE
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