I was talking about physical size of individual players, not the size of the school. Take a look at the average D5 roster, then look at Ursuline's. Tell me there's no size difference. The same held true of ASVSM and Mooney when they were in D4. Look at their rosters now compared to the average schools in D3.
The generalization I was referring to was the argument that "if only they worked harder and stopped complaining" which is a common refrain around here, because I've used it myself.
By the way, I don't advocate a split. I've embraced the advantage. My school benefits from the ability to attract talent from a wide area. However, there are two huge publics that my school is sandwiched between that are also just as effective at it, if not more so.
Not all that strong of an argument, Stiz. You cite Mooney and Ursuline which are the extremes and really the exception, since Mooney and Ursuline beat up other private schools in their division just as bad and many times worse than the good public school teams in their division. (And Mooney's roster is mostly Catholic kids directly from Mooney's Catholic grade schools; Ursuline not so much). Most private schools in the lower divisions are no where near a Mooney or Ursuline. St. V is a horrible example in football. They lose to public schools in the playoffs all the time and have not won a state championship since the 1980s. Delphos St. John and Norwalk St. Paul are not in large urban areas and many if not most of the public schools around them are statewide open enrollment. The issue is much more complicated than you are stating. It is not just draw area. Private schools DO NOT have every school age kid available to them in their areas, many do not want to or can't pay the tuition, many think their public school is fine academically, if it is a Catholic school many non-Catholics wouldn't even consider sending their kids to a Catholic school. I would expect a little more thought on the subject from a Canton Central Catholic grad, since CCC is a top notch school. BTW Didn't CCC just get beat up pretty badly in the first round of the playoffs by a public school last year. CCC's last 4 playoff appearances:
2011: Lost badly to Girard in Rd 1
2007: Lost pretty badly to Steubenville in Rd 2
2006: Lost badly to Orville in Rd 1
2005: Lost to Mooney in Rd. 3 (Mooney lost the state championship to Coldwater)
According to your overstated and poorly thought out rationale, Canton Central Catholic should rarely lose to a public school in their division in the playoffs. That doesn't seem to be the case however. Same goes for Canton Central's Catholic's cross town rival, Aquinas made the playoffs last year for the first time since the late 1980s and lost to a public school in Rd 2. That public school Crestview, by the way, is statewide open enrollment and had numerous open enrollment kids starting on their football team. Again Stiz, if you really are a Central grad I would expect a much more intelligent discussion from you on this topic.
I was talking about physical size of individual players, not the size of the school. Take a look at the average D5 roster, then look at Ursuline's. Tell me there's no size difference. The same held true of ASVSM and Mooney when they were in D4. Look at their rosters now compared to the average schools in D3.
The generalization I was referring to was the argument that "if only they worked harder and stopped complaining" which is a common refrain around here, because I've used it myself.
By the way, I don't advocate a split. I've embraced the advantage. My school benefits from the ability to attract talent from a wide area. However, there are two huge publics that my school is sandwiched between that are also just as effective at it, if not more so.
If that's a convenient generalization, then it's just as convenient for public schools to claim that privates suck all the talent up and away from them.
Now you're turning this political. Why? Let's stick to football because I don't think you're really qualified to have a political discussion. Did you actually pay for your private school education? Your mom and dad will want their money back.
Actually they did, but I payed for my private college education sitzbath, and if you dont think the arguments public shool proponents are making dont have anything to do with politics then you may need a sitzbath for your head. I really dont think you want to get into a debate with me, you will lose badly. I also would appreciate you not trying to tell me what topic I should stick to, your not my mommy, and you dang sure didnt pay for my education. Sitz on that brutha.
OK, Dave...so you work in radio media. That doesn't make you objective.
I have a suggestion. It wouldn't take a lot of work on your part. In Ohio, no private school has won the state softball title since 2004. That's four divisions over eight years. Not one private school winner for 8 straight years in four divisions. 32 public school state champs. It's a big sport in terms of number of participating schools. It's also pretty high profile with lots of players. This year's winners were...North Canton Hoover (D-I), LaGrange Keystone (D-II), Warren Champion (D-III), Convoy Crestview (D-IV). The opponents in the final were all publics as well. Pick up the phone and call the coach of each state champion and ask them why they win and why the privates don't.
Publish a story with your answers.
I know what the overall public/private stats are, but this sport might provide some interesting fodder about who wins and WHY.
Take a shot at this...it wouldn't be too hard and it would be real journalism. You could even slant the story a bit to fit your view of things. You could run a thread on Yappi..."Public Schools Dominate Softball and We Tell You Why!!!"
I believe St. Edward became the 4th private school to ever win a D1 track title in the state tournament's 100+ years of existence. Less than 20 privates have won boys track in all divisions over 100 years.
I believe St. Edward became the 4th private school to ever win a D1 track title in the state tournament's 100+ years of existence. Less than 20 privates have won boys track in all divisions over 100 years.
You're correct that men's track is dominated by public schools in Ohio...I think they have won about 90% of the team titles in the last ten years. Similarly, in men's basketball, the publics win about 80% of the team titles. However, the usual response from the private critics (not stated directly, but strongly hinted at) is that these are sports dominated by African-Americans. Not quite sure how that fits with the public-private argument, but those who hint at it aren't comfortable with carrying their thought to a conclusion.
Softball is the most intriguing sport, though. It's very middle class, a girls' sport (which the privates usually excel in...volleyball, basketball, soccer, e.g.). In addition, it isn't as if all the talent in private schools are gravitating toward another spring OHSAA sport (track?).
Actually they did, but I payed for my private college education sitzbath, and if you dont think the arguments public shool proponents are making dont have anything to do with politics then you may need a sitzbath for your head. I really dont think you want to get into a debate with me, you will lose badly. I also would appreciate you not trying to tell me what topic I should stick to, your not my mommy, and you dang sure didnt pay for my education. Sitz on that brutha.
Though I believe we are on the same side in this debate, I would cease bragging about my education and superior intelligence if were you. At least until you complete remedial English.
Though I believe we are on the same side in this debate, I would cease bragging about my education and superior intelligence if were you. At least until you complete remedial English.
The next time you want to point out someone's grammar/english in a negative fashion, maybe make sure your own post is mistake free.
The next time you want to point out someone's grammar/english in a negative fashion, maybe make sure your own post is mistake free.
I hate to be the one to correct you, but " If I were you" is absolutely correct. Because it is contrary to fact ( he is, in fact, not you), then it goes into the subjunctive and uses "were." For example:"If I were a rich man," or "If I were king of the forest." Sorry, but the post was gramatically correct. But we all agree that the debate on this issue has run its course.
I hate to be the one to correct you, but " If I were you" is absolutely correct. Because it is contrary to fact ( he is, in fact, not you), then it goes into the subjunctive and uses "were." For example:"If I were a rich man," or "If I were king of the forest." Sorry, but the post was gramatically correct. But we all agree that the debate on this issue has run its course.
Read the part of his post that I bolded and tell me what's missing. I was just giving him a hard time. Not that you noticed the sarcastic thumbs up icon at the end of the post.
I am so tired of the Public School and Private School Debate. Both Public and Private Schools offer Top Rate Educations. They all have talented Athletes. Some have better facilities than others but since when does a state of the art football Colosseum make a great Team?
Publics AND Privates are similar in almost EVERY aspect except ONE.
PARENT INVOLVEMENT!!
No matter how good a school is, how brilliant a coach is, they will not take care of a child's future.
Not all that strong of an argument, Stiz. You cite Mooney and Ursuline which are the extremes and really the exception, since Mooney and Ursuline beat up other private schools in their division just as bad and many times worse than the good public school teams in their division. (And Mooney's roster is mostly Catholic kids directly from Mooney's Catholic grade schools; Ursuline not so much). Most private schools in the lower divisions are no where near a Mooney or Ursuline. St. V is a horrible example in football. They lose to public schools in the playoffs all the time and have not won a state championship since the 1980s. Delphos St. John and Norwalk St. Paul are not in large urban areas and many if not most of the public schools around them are statewide open enrollment. The issue is much more complicated than you are stating. It is not just draw area. Private schools DO NOT have every school age kid available to them in their areas, many do not want to or can't pay the tuition, many think their public school is fine academically, if it is a Catholic school many non-Catholics wouldn't even consider sending their kids to a Catholic school. I would expect a little more thought on the subject from a Canton Central Catholic grad, since CCC is a top notch school. BTW Didn't CCC just get beat up pretty badly in the first round of the playoffs by a public school last year. CCC's last 4 playoff appearances:
2011: Lost badly to Girard in Rd 1
2007: Lost pretty badly to Steubenville in Rd 2
2006: Lost badly to Orville in Rd 1
2005: Lost to Mooney in Rd. 3 (Mooney lost the state championship to Coldwater)
According to your overstated and poorly thought out rationale, Canton Central Catholic should rarely lose to a public school in their division in the playoffs. That doesn't seem to be the case however. Same goes for Canton Central's Catholic's cross town rival, Aquinas made the playoffs last year for the first time since the late 1980s and lost to a public school in Rd 2. That public school Crestview, by the way, is statewide open enrollment and had numerous open enrollment kids starting on their football team. Again Stiz, if you really are a Central grad I would expect a much more intelligent discussion from you on this topic.
Simply calling it overstated and poorly thought doesn't make it so. In fact, you make my points for me. I am only suggesting a disparity when it comes to schools in urban areas, and the fallacy that hard work is enough to overcome the talent gap. Youngstown is the prime example. But, to suggest that ASVSM is somehow at a disadvantage when it comes to talent and talent concentration is off base. The talent pool in the greater Akron area is being spread around more. Now CVCA is a player. Walsh and Hoban contine to be players. Add to that the public schools who always seem to find a way to concentrate talent, and that explains a lot. But for the sake of argument would you rather have the talent routinely available at ASVSM or would you prefer the talent routinely available at - let's say - Coventry, Buckeye, North or some other typical D3 Akron area school?
You made the point about Delphos St. John. I believe in an earlier post that I addressed that. When was the last time Delphos Jefferson was relevant in football? St. John has an impact on that area. Is it the same as Ursuline? No, but it's enough.
Is the issue more complicated? Sure it is. But the win ratio can not be disputed. Are there families that won't send their kids to Catholic schools? Of course, but there are plenty more who will. Are there kids who attend Catholic or private schools all their lives? Yes, but there are also a number who make the jump only in high school (as there are who make the jump to public school, too.). And remember we are talking about a select group -- athletes. There are a lot of non-athletes who make similar moves, but the concentration of athletes, especially in the cash sports, seems to be what is in question here. And those questions are valid.
I also addressed the situation at my alma mater in an earlier post. I admit we have benefitted from our advantage. However, I also pointed out that we are in a unique position in Stark County. At no point have I brought up the issue of recruiting, you and I know that does not happen. Do we have a lot to offer prospective students and athletes at CCC? Absolutely. But if a boy wants to play football or basketball in Stark County, he often chooses Massillon, McKinley or one of the Fed programs for football. Timken has now become a player when it comes to basketball. Is it surprising that CCC has seen it's fortunes ebb and flow in recent years? Not at all.
I love when people think they have something new to say. There is nothing new left to say.
Yes there is. People just don't want to face the truth. It hurts. The problem is economics and lifestyle. Privates haven't gotten better the last 50 years. The publics have gotten weaker.
Take Canton as the example for the larger Ohio cities. The city is dominated by poor families mostly headed by a single parent. Poor people have a completely different set of problems than middle class and wealthier families. Those problems carry through to the classroom and extracurricular activities. And, not in a positive way. Poor people are preoccupied with providing shelter, clothes, food, and other basic needs.
McKinley Senior still has some of the finest football players in the country. But, there are too many holes from end to end on both sides of the ball. Most obvious is the lack of a kicking game. Who would have thought. What is not so obvious is the lack of overall conditioning, blocking and tackling skills, etc.
Privates are still following their purpose. Provide a quality education, education, education and good extracurricular activities all within a Christian atmosphere. Parents take is a little different. They want from the privates a quality EDUCATION, EDUCATION , EDUCATION and good extracurricular activities within a Christain atmosphere. The privates are delivering.
Parents are paying thousands of dollars to send their children to private schools. They want their money's worth. That means, in class every day, complete the homework every night and participate is some extracurricular activity. And both parents are there to make it happen.
I'm a product of the public system and so is my family and I support the public system. But I have a healthy respect for the privates. If separate play-offs become a reality, the publics will be the loser.
My advice to the publics is quit the bashing. You are ones that have changed.
Publics want privates gone? In Obama socialist world your absolutely right. People with real intelligence believe that good schools for our children is our only way to succeed in this country, you NE liberals will never go for that though would you? You prefer the substandard level that most of our public shools are operating at now, keep that tax money flowing though.
I really don't care about the whole public private debate, but since you brought it up, define socialism. Can you? How is President Obama a socialist? Be specific. How do you know most public schools are operating at a substandard level? What knowledge or criteria do you base that on?
Yes there is. People just don't want to face the truth. It hurts. The problem is economics and lifestyle. Privates haven't gotten better the last 50 years. The publics have gotten weaker.
Take Canton as the example for the larger Ohio cities. The city is dominated by poor families mostly headed by a single parent. Poor people have a completely different set of problems than middle class and wealthier families. Those problems carry through to the classroom and extracurricular activities. And, not in a positive way. Poor people are preoccupied with providing shelter, clothes, food, and other basic needs.
McKinley Senior still has some of the finest football players in the country. But, there are too many holes from end to end on both sides of the ball. Most obvious is the lack of a kicking game. Who would have thought. What is not so obvious is the lack of overall conditioning, blocking and tackling skills, etc.
Privates are still following their purpose. Provide a quality education, education, education and good extracurricular activities all within a Christian atmosphere. Parents take is a little different. They want from the privates a quality EDUCATION, EDUCATION , EDUCATION and good extracurricular activities within a Christain atmosphere. The privates are delivering.
Parents are paying thousands of dollars to send their children to private schools. They want their money's worth. That means, in class every day, complete the homework every night and participate is some extracurricular activity. And both parents are there to make it happen.
I'm a product of the public system and so is my family and I support the public system. But I have a healthy respect for the privates. If separate play-offs become a reality, the publics will be the loser.
My advice to the publics is quit the bashing. You are ones that have changed.
You made the point about Delphos St. John. I believe in an earlier post that I addressed that. When was the last time Delphos Jefferson was relevant in football? St. John has an impact on that area. Is it the same as Ursuline? No, but it's enough.
I'm guessing you've never been to Delphos or know little to nothing about Delphos. The kids that go to DSJ and Jefferson are the same kids that went there 25, 50, 75 years ago. Same names, same families. The kids that graduate from DSJ and DJ start at those schools in kindergarten. Transfers between the schools are few and far between. And if you think parents enroll their kids at DSJ in kindergarten because of the football success, I can't help you.
The difference in football between the two schools starts with coaching and includes competition. Todd Schulte is one of the best coaches in Ohio, any division. And competing against Marion Local, Coldwater, St. Henry, Versailles, Minster, Anna, etc... week after week makes you better.
I really don't care about the whole public private debate, but since you brought it up, define socialism. Can you? How is President Obama a socialist? Be specific. How do you know most public schools are operating at a substandard level? What knowledge or criteria do you base that on?
There is a problem, no doubt, but is there a solution everyone can live with? Listen to an interview with LCC AD Ron Williams and why they left the Northwest Conf..
The GMC-Moeller issue, another problem... and in my mind the least of the problem is not the scheduling issue, but the effects it is causing on everyone. Bridges are being burnt that maybe hard to fix in the future. I will agree with many who say, let the kids play they don't care...it is the adults problem on both sides.
I will say it again, it is a US problem, just not an Ohio one. Time to solve it and let the kids play,
I will say it again, it is a US problem, just not an Ohio one. Time to solve it and let the kids play,
This is a non-sensical comment. "Let the kids play" suggests doing nothing. "Time to solve it"...you and your people see a problem that requires a major re-structuring...the antithesis of "let the kids play".
Again, Dave, how about this. There's plenty of research out there that suggests that wealth (who has it/who doesn't) is a far bigger predictive factor for winning than whether schools are public or private. You appear to be searching the internet for stories. Look for that. It's out there. Then, if people like you see this as a wealth problem rather than a public/private problem, you will likely consider different solutions...or give up.
Privates recruit because it's how they attract students and student-athletes. Publics aren't allowed to recruit. The two systems are no longer compatible in terms of athletic competition. Time to move on...
Privates recruit because it's how they attract students and student-athletes. Publics aren't allowed to recruit. The two systems are no longer compatible in terms of athletic competition. Time to move on...
Absolutely untrue Bob.
Here's a better way of putting it. Private schools MUST recruit. Public schools CAN recruit but choose not to. Example...Bay Village and Westlake have many of their sons and daughters attend Ignatius, Ed's, Magnificat and St. Joseph Academy. If Bay and Westlake decided it was in their interest to, say, raise their enrollment by 10%, they could do it through LEGAL recruiting. Open houses, letters to all students within the district who don't attend the public schools encouraging them to come to an open house. Things like that. Explain to private school parents..."hey, we're just as good as Ignatius (or better); save the 12k; you're paying the property taxes anyway; come to Bay High". The reality is that public schools generally don't want additional students, but they could recruit students just like private schools if they wished.
Here's a better way of putting it. Private schools MUST recruit. Public schools CAN recruit but choose not to. Example...Bay Village and Westlake have many of their sons and daughters attend Ignatius, Ed's, Magnificat and St. Joseph Academy. If Bay and Westlake decided it was in their interest to, say, raise their enrollment by 10%, they could do it through LEGAL recruiting. Open houses, letters to all students within the district who don't attend the public schools encouraging them to come to an open house. Things like that. Explain to private school parents..."hey, we're just as good as Ignatius (or better); save the 12k; you're paying the property taxes anyway; come to Bay High". The reality is that public schools generally don't want additional students, but they could recruit students just like private schools if they wished.
You're simply wrong. When Massillon was found to be recruiting, they weren't allowed to go to the playoffs. If parochials recruit, they get trophies. Chalk and cheese, my friend.
You're simply wrong. When Massillon was found to be illegallyrecruiting, they weren't allowed to go to the playoffs. If parochials recruit legally, they get trophies. Chalk and cheese, my friend.
I fixed your post. There are rules to abide by and if those rules are violated then the school should be punished. If my alma mater is doing something illegal then I will be there with you asking for them to be punished. But for years now there have been nothing but false accusations with no evidence to substantiate the claims.
By the way, you totally miss CatAlum's point. A public school can promote it's benefits just as much as a parochial school can but most public schools refuse to do so. The only time I hear anything from public schools about how good they are is when they use blackmail on tax payers by threatening to take things away if a levy doesn't pass.
Here in Cincinnati we are blessed to have so many strong school systems along with the private schools to choose from. What has made these schools all better is "competition" in and out of the classroom. You look at the schools that are struggling and they are usually the one's that misused their tax money and/or fell behind in new educational trends.
Even in the Cincinnati Public School system you can see they've made the right kind of changes at certain schools. Withrow is actually two different schools. The way it was explained to me is that in the older school building it is their regular high school. In their newer wing it is more like an academy with a college prep environment. It's been successful in getting talented students into college. There are other schools within the CPS that you can apply to if you are in the CPS district that give their students a better chance in life. The School of Crestive and Performing Arts is an excellent example. There have been several students from that CPS school that have gone on to careers in Hollywood and Broadway.
My whole point is the publics don't do a very good job of selling themselves so that is why private schools that are run right excel the way they do. There are way too many excuse makers on Yappi and in the real world who are missing the point in a big way!
I'm guessing you've never been to Delphos or know little to nothing about Delphos. The kids that go to DSJ and Jefferson are the same kids that went there 25, 50, 75 years ago. Same names, same families. The kids that graduate from DSJ and DJ start at those schools in kindergarten. Transfers between the schools are few and far between. And if you think parents enroll their kids at DSJ in kindergarten because of the football success, I can't help you.
The difference in football between the two schools starts with coaching and includes competition. Todd Schulte is one of the best coaches in Ohio, any division. And competing against Marion Local, Coldwater, St. Henry, Versailles, Minster, Anna, etc... week after week makes you better.
I know an administrator at Jefferson that could come up with a long list of students he would be glad to send to St Johns for open enrollment. Lets see how they would do in D-5 on a permanent basis instead of beating up on schools with 35-40 kids on their roster.
The major difference in schools/student success is parent involvement. Whether it is private or public schools. I also believe to some extent in athletics as well. When parents care enough to get involved, students succeed. This happens at some public schools and at most private schools. I am not saying that you can not succeed without parent involvement, but it is much harder. I have taught at both types of schools, I have seen it first hand. Even in a particular school, there success varies widely. In my current school, are honors classes are full of students whose parents are involved and in the lower end classes not so much. This year I taught two students who lived just a couple doors from each other, on the poor side of town. The one's mom held her son to high standards. He was successful in both academics and athletics. The other struggled in both, even though he has more natural ability. This is a story I could tell almost every year, over and over again.
So what is my point? For some schools, success is much easier than others. This goes for privates as well as public schools. It is easy to come on here and say, "they need to stop whining and just work harder to get better." In reality, some of those schools are working harder, because they have to, without as much success. What I don't like, is some on here are basically saying, we are great and you are not ... and it is because we are great and you are not.
I don't know what the solution is, if there is a solution. I do know, there are differences between schools, even if they have the same number of students. I don't know if the competitive balance idea was the answer or not, but I have no problem with the idea of exploring a way to even the playing field ... but separate playoffs is the worst of all the ideas. I would much rather keep the current system then take the easy way out with separate playoffs.
I fixed your post. There are rules to abide by and if those rules are violated then the school should be punished. If my alma mater is doing something illegal then I will be there with you asking for them to be punished. But for years now there have been nothing but false accusations with no evidence to substantiate the claims.
By the way, you totally miss CatAlum's point. A public school can promote it's benefits just as much as a parochial school can but most public schools refuse to do so. The only time I hear anything from public schools about how good they are is when they use blackmail on tax payers by threatening to take things away if a levy doesn't pass.
Here in Cincinnati we are blessed to have so many strong school systems along with the private schools to choose from. What has made these schools all better is "competition" in and out of the classroom. You look at the schools that are struggling and they are usually the one's that misused their tax money and/or fell behind in new educational trends.
Even in the Cincinnati Public School system you can see they've made the right kind of changes at certain schools. Withrow is actually two different schools. The way it was explained to me is that in the older school building it is their regular high school. In their newer wing it is more like an academy with a college prep environment. It's been successful in getting talented students into college. There are other schools within the CPS that you can apply to if you are in the CPS district that give their students a better chance in life. The School of Crestive and Performing Arts is an excellent example. There have been several students from that CPS school that have gone on to careers in Hollywood and Broadway.
My whole point is the publics don't do a very good job of selling themselves so that is why private schools that are run right excel the way they do. There are way too many excuse makers on Yappi and in the real world who are missing the point in a big way!
Fixed my post, did you? I think not. Parochials find ways around the illegal recruitment rules that are not available to publics (scholarships, vouchers, etc.). Canton City Schools is a closed district. It is closed for a very good reason. Publics, unlike parochials, cannot pick and choose their students. Problem students along with special needs students would be sent here in significant numbers from the surrounding suburban districts, and we can't afford the added expense of hiring extra specialised teachers that would be needed.
And it is you and your ilk who are missing the real point. It's called sportsmanship, you know, the 19th century British concept held sacred by amateur sporting bodies, including the OHSAA. It requires everyone to play by the same set of rules. If privates cannot or will not, then it's time for them to split.
At the end of the day, none of your elaborate pontifications on this forum will sway the people who will eventually vote into believing there is fairness in competition, so you might as well throw in the towel. Actually, any public school administrators who would bother reading your arrogant, patronising elaborations of bs, I'm sure, would be more inclined to move for the split. Just sayin'...as a public school fan, i believe it's a safe bet that I'm more in tune with the thinking on this side of the chasm.
MANOWAR obsesses on where 14 year olds go to school.
Well said!
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