Well, this could be a possibility and if it is so, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Region 4 has been a flat out bear, hard enough to qualify for the post season and then just try and get through it. The possibility of Region 3 and Region 4 combining is very interesting. Region 3 has no idea what it is like to have to get through Colerain, St. Xavier, and Elder on back to back weeks. Fact, region 3 has no private schools in it at all. Without trying to sound like an R4 arrogant blowhard, could a R3 team make it to state if the two regions combine? How do you fans down in Cincy feel about a possible merger of R3 and R4? Would you rather keep R4 and just ship the northern R4 Dayton area teams to R3?
It would present a new challenge for those schools sure, but I think they would be up for it. I know how difficult it can be having to beat as many as 3 GCL-S schools to win the current R-4 but I would say Davidson, Pick Central, Upper Arlington etc. can do it just like Colerain or Wayne can and have. May only happen 2-3 times in a 10 year span but not impossible.
That being said it is easier to beat a team of that caliber once than 2-3 times.
Typically when a public school has a signature team like Upper Arlington had in 2000 or Colerain had in 2004, they rise up and take all comers on their way to a state title.
Too late! (though I'd add the word "idiotic" in place of "arrogant").
The R3 champ has beaten the R4 champ in 3 of the past 6 years. And R3 has won more state titles (2 vs. 1) during that same time period.
-that's fine
True, but they did not have to beat more than 1 R4 team to get there and state final game was against a public school. Beating Elder, St.Xavier, or Colerain is one thing but beating them in back to back weeks is more of a challenge. That 2000 Upper Arlington team was something else and I'm sure they could of got it done but I'm not sure the HD teams could of....
True, but they did not have to beat more than 1 R4 team to get there and state final game was against a public school. Beating Elder, St.Xavier, or Colerain is one thing but beating them in back to back weeks is more of a challenge. That 2000 Upper Arlington team was something else and I'm sure they could of got it done but I'm not sure the HD teams could of....
I see what you are saying Vamps. As an alum/fan of a R4 school (Colerain), I have wondered how many more of our teams would have possibly won state had we not had to play 2-3 GCL-S Schools to get out of the region. The 2002 and 2003 teams that lost to Elder come to mind (especially 2003 where I think our game with them was the toughest they had on the way to their state title). But the bottom line is we lost on the field and every R3 team to ever win state won on the filed and that is the only thing that is known for sure. But this is a message board so part of the point is to discuss "what ifs".
Without trying to sound like an R4 arrogant blowhard, could a R3 team make it to state if the two regions combine?
Last 10 years in the state semi's...
2011 PC over X
2010 Wayne over HD
2009 HD over Elder
2008 Elder over PC
2007 X over Coffman
2006 HD over Colerain
2005 X over HD
2004 Colerain over W. Kil.
2003 Elder over D. Scioto
2002 Elder over Findlay
Seems like R3 does OK against R4. Except for '04 and '03, all of these games were close and R3 seems to be trending upward in recent years. Regarding the big Cincy schools, R3 is 3-3 in the state semis in their last six encounters. Pretty good.
Why would the OHSAA want to combine R3 with R4 (rhetorical)?
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There has never been any talk of it as far as I know. The "new" R3 and R4 will occupy roughly the same geographic footprints as the legacy versions. The "new" R7 and R8, likewise. They will likely need to move 2 or 3 of the Dayton area teams to R3 to them a full alottment, but that is all.
The numbers don't justify it. People may want to justify it on a parity basis. Arguing that the 3rd or 4th best R4 team is better than the best R3 team or something stupid like that, perhaps. But then you'd have to combine the regions and cut it in half. What you'd (possibly) gain in parity, you'd lose in geography and logistics. Maybe Moeller is pushing thinking they could win a mostly R3 region .
FWIW, St. Charles just moved up to DI this past fall. Whether or not they'll ever be able to adjust to life as a DI football program remains to be seen.
2011 PC over X
2010 Wayne over HD
2009 HD over Elder
2008 Elder over PC
2007 X over Coffman
2006 HD over Colerain
2005 X over HD
2004 Colerain over W. Kil.
2003 Elder over D. Scioto
2002 Elder over Findlay
Seems like R3 does OK against R4. Except for '04 and '03, all of these games were close and R3 seems to be trending upward in recent years. Regarding the big Cincy schools, R3 is 3-3 in the state semis in their last six encounters. Pretty good.
Let's forget the first 3 years of the 10 years the example provided. 7-3 overall for R4 and 6-3 for just Cincinnati. Yeah R3 is still behind R4. Let's also count state title in that time frame. 4-2 in favor of R4
Why would the OHSAA want to combine R3 with R4 (rhetorical)?
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The original proposal by the competition committee was for the new div1 to be split into 2 regions with 16 teams qualifying in each. They have yet to set up the playoff system for the new div1; but since it was part of the original proposal, it is definitely possible that they implement it when they meet this summer to iron out the details.
2011 PC over X
2010 Wayne over HD
2009 HD over Elder
2008 Elder over PC
2007 X over Coffman
2006 HD over Colerain
2005 X over HD
2004 Colerain over W. Kil.
2003 Elder over D. Scioto
2002 Elder over Findlay
Seems like R3 does OK against R4. Except for '04 and '03, all of these games were close and R3 seems to be trending upward in recent years. Regarding the big Cincy schools, R3 is 3-3 in the state semis in their last six encounters. Pretty good.
I think the question is; if they go to the 2 region split with 16 playoff teams each, would the Columbus teams be more likely or less likely to make the finals having to play more than 1 R4 team. If you think there are more quality region4 teams, it would make it theorectically harder for the region 3 teams. Whether this is true or not, is debatable.
Yes, it's very debatable. Vamp2syd's opinion really isn't backed up by any evidence that I'm aware of.
There is evidence that the Dayton area region 3 playoff teams do not have to be as good as the region 4 Dayton area teams that make the playoffs.
I think that there are more quality region 4 teams than region 3 teams in an average year; so if they had to play an extra game against a quality team, that would reduce their chances at making state. That is the only reason that I see.
[Disclaimer: still think that the Davidson teams would have still won state, not sure about PC making it to state last year.]
Well, this could be a possibility and if it is so, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Region 4 has been a flat out bear, hard enough to qualify for the post season and then just try and get through it. The possibility of Region 3 and Region 4 combining is very interesting. Region 3 has no idea what it is like to have to get through Colerain, St. Xavier, and Elder on back to back weeks. Fact, region 3 has no private schools in it at all. Without trying to sound like an R4 arrogant blowhard, could a R3 team make it to state if the two regions combine? How do you fans down in Cincy feel about a possible merger of R3 and R4? Would you rather keep R4 and just ship the northern R4 Dayton area teams to R3?
If 2 R4 teams (or 2 R3 teams) could in theory meet in the State Semi's...I would be all for that. The more I think about it...the more I like it in the sense that you would probably end up with the best final 4 teams duking it out with each other...versus the R4 big boys knocking each other off going thru R4. With that said....I am of the opinion that there is enough parity in the bottom half of Ohio that truly most of the teams have a realistic chance to advance thru the playoffs. You saw it last year with PC. Wayne, HD, Middletown, Centerville...teams like these always seem to bring their "A" game when they play the GCL/Colerain.
You could just as easily make the case of what Reg.2 team could survive going up against Ignatius, Ed's, and Mentor in successive weeks. Reg.3, as been proven by recent results, has the better chance of moving on to the state championship.
There is evidence that the Dayton area region 3 playoff teams do not have to be as good as the region 4 Dayton area teams that make the playoffs.
I think that there are more quality region 4 teams than region 3 teams in an average year; so if they had to play an extra game against a quality team, that would reduce their chances at making state. That is the only reason that I see.
[Disclaimer: still think that the Davidson teams would have still won state, not sure about PC making it to state last year.]
Can you give me some examples of the Dayton area R3 teams?
You may be right about R4's depth, but I'd love to see how you quantify that. The problem with figuring this out is that R3 plays very few games out of its region against top teams in R1 and R4. When they do play a top R4 in the state semis, they do OK. And it certainly appears to me that R3 is on the rise in recent years.
Can't we just get rid of R2 instead? It seems like they aren't even worth the time and effort. Looking back to 2000, I think an R2 team made it to the title game only twice (and lost to Cincy teams both times).
Yes, it's very debatable. Vamp2syd's opinion really isn't backed up by any evidence that I'm aware of.
It is theoretical/subjective.
I don't think there are many fans on here that would argue that R3 is overall nearly as competitive with R4. The big dogs of R4 have tended to beat the big dogs of R3 over the last decade.
That said, the addition of PC, HD and Dublin Coffman would certainly increase the quality of the regional top 10 nicely.
I don't think there are many fans on here that would argue that R3 is overall nearly as competitive with R4. The big dogs of R4 have tended to beat the big dogs of R3 over the last decade.
I've gone in for a little R3 bashing over the years. I really don't think it's provably true anymore. Their track record against good Ohio competition, when they play outside of R3 (somewhat rare), is quite good in the last 5 years, so I don't agree with you on this anymore.
Are they currently in R3 and what have they done in R3 in recent years?
Troy made the region 3 playoffs 2010, 2011; they were in region 4 2005-2009-no playoffs -region 3 2004 playoffs..
Springfield 2009, 2010; they were in div2 before the 2 Springfield schools combined.
Troy made the region 3 playoffs 2010, 2011; they were in region 4 2005-2009-no playoffs -region 3 2004 playoffs..
Springfield 2009, 2010; they were in div2 before the 2 Springfield schools combined.
I've gone in for a little R3 bashing over the years. I really don't think it's provably true anymore. Their track record against good Ohio competition, when they play outside of R3 (somewhat rare), is quite good in the last 5 years, so I don't agree with you on this anymore.
Versus R4 going back to 2003 I show the top teams from R3 being 3-8 versus the big dogs from R4, including 2-5 in the last 5 years (granted, PC's win last season over a beaten up X team was the one of three that counted most).
I fully acknowledge that R3 is no joke anymore. It is certainly stronger in the top three to top five teams than R2 and is approaching R1. I still think R4 is best though.
Can't we just get rid of R2 instead? It seems like they aren't even worth the time and effort. Looking back to 2000, I think an R2 team made it to the title game only twice (and lost to Cincy teams both times).
Well, looking at history, R2 has reached the State Finals 15 times. R3 has 5 appearances. You can skew results all you want with a small window sample, but over the long haul, you get a more accurate picture. I think some jerk named stivic tried to pass this crap off during the playoffs to say that R3 was better than R1, because of a small sample of success R3 had.
The better question is where to hold these playoff games if the two were to be combined. The only logical equidistant location is Welcome Stadium in Dayton right?
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Looking back to 2000, I think an R2 team made it to the title game only twice (and lost to Cincy teams both times).
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