You guys are arguing over pure raw opinion. Other kids beat No.1 kids in the country in the last 12 months and muti- time state champs, Fargo champs, dominantly and they get no consideration because of personal bias and thats ok its sort of fun to knock off the expert fantasy wrestling guru's favorites and be no where on the state Rankings. Rankings are great for to "beat list". just keep wrestling. A real pattern is for the expert to defend when his favorites loses over injuries or sickness but yet not allow the same in anyway for the kids not on his "List". I have seen kids with a stuffy nose defended and then a kid with a broken leg laughed at ...The difference is what school he goes to or the region he lives in.
Bottom line, I enjoy the various opinions and experts. I have learned the pluses and minuses over the years. Bucksman leans towards big name schools with big time schedules and for good reason even though that can lead to a inaccurate approach in some situations. An Eds kids seems to get credit for what he does at Fargo and who beats in the summer but not the same for a kid at a small public school no matter who he beats. I love Bucksmans national break Downs more than State in that it is very useful for our favorite style and summer season. I do believe Bucksman is at least most of the time consistent with his prejudices and opinions and how he forms them, that is a plus. Bottom line agree or disagree he provides a unique arial view of what is going on that no one else is suppling at the level he does.
Boro fan is a good solid ground floor view of Ohio D-3 activities. No other division has a Guru like Borofan who hustles information right from the streets and social networks. Very informative, very entertaining, definitely has his favorites and even "promotes" some kids like their personal manager but he definitely adds some great forum entertainment and is over all a great asset to Ohio wrestling fans hungry for info. He will do nothing but get better as he matures and gets into his mid twenties....I hope he doesn't get bored and quit doing what he does.
Brakeman is the Gem for Ohio Only, Folkstyle only, all division, Story telling, always positive, state ranking right when it counts, once a year Beloved Wrestling Guru!
Three guys , totally different products. Should never be compared to each other because they do completely different services and offer different kinds of products.
We all have our opinions because of who and what we saw on the actual mats in the tournaments we actually were at. We all have opinions because of who we like and talk to in this sport. We all have our favorite coaches and teams we get our info and bias from. No one is right, No one is wrong. Its all human bias and personal taste. Personally over the years I have learned to lean towards the actual results and watching these young men work hard and let them decide that day who is the best. Recognized or not they wrestle and all leave it out there, what we all do on here is secondary and easy.
I can't help but feel as if this was written with some bitterness. I am not accusing you of anything just how it comes across as I read it.
On a side note... a HUGE thank you to Bucksman, Boro Fan, and Brakeman for their countless hours of unpaid contribution to the sport of wrestling.
Well Bucksman gets his cut I'm sure but on a national level and seems to provide his OHIO rankings out of a "love for the competition" rather than the pay check.
Overall, I tend to agree with these rankings. Very well done Bucksman!
I can't help but feel as if this was written with some bitterness. I am not accusing you of anything just how it comes across as I read it.
On a side note... a HUGE thank you to Bucksman, Boro Fan, and Brakeman for their countless hours of unpaid contribution to the sport of wrestling.
Well Bucksman gets his cut I'm sure but on a national level and seems to provide his OHIO rankings out of a "love for the competition" rather than the pay check.
Overall, I tend to agree with these rankings. Very well done Bucksman!
I guess if there were bitterness, it went over my head. I just was a bit in awe reading Falcon's analysis of the analysts and found the post full of angles of praise that had not occurred to me.
I actually enjoyed Falcon's post, and agreed with the last 2/3's of it. I know more about Ohio wrestling than most people, and I swear that Bucksman has forgotten more than I know. Like Falcon said, agree or disagree, he provides a unique view and scope. He always has a rationale and can back up what he says. If you agree or not, at least there is a rationale there. I am pretty sure that he doesn't expect or particularly care if everybody agrees with him. Let me say it this way- we are all much more aware because of the work that these guys do. They are all assets.
I have a borderline photographic memory, and he makes me feel like the guy from Memento.
excellent reference. Due you write things on your body so you can remember? Being a new to the sport and having not wrestled but having many friends who did i find it refreshing to have bucks and boro to lean on for people i do not get to see.
I can't help but feel as if this was written with some bitterness. I am not accusing you of anything just how it comes across as I read it.
On a side note... a HUGE thank you to Bucksman, Boro Fan, and Brakeman for their countless hours of unpaid contribution to the sport of wrestling.
Well Bucksman gets his cut I'm sure but on a national level and seems to provide his OHIO rankings out of a "love for the competition" rather than the pay check.
Overall, I tend to agree with these rankings. Very well done Bucksman!
I am sorry You "feel" that way. I find it interesting how some posters do not think twice at bitterly attacking other posters, wrestlers or families but when a good heart felt ranking or breakdown of their beloved favorite Guru is given they get very very defensive and feel its unfair even though the guru's criticize, judge, breakdown, sometimes slight others even though the might not mean too....Its the nature of what they do. Everyone agree's all these guys do a lot of work to give their own personal takes, biases and guesses on the sport of wrestling. There is no right or wrong again. I thought my analyses of them was heart felt and honest from my biases and experiences......No bitterness anymore than how the guru's break down wrestlers, regions or teams. Simply my take , my read, my thoughts...Take it or leave it. Any one who feels "Bitter" over Guesses and predictions needs to spend more time on the mats working harder to get better. He who Judges should not mind being judged himself. All 3 IMO are pretty good and taking some criticism some better than others.
Let me say this to all the wrestlers out there. The method that the experts use to judge you is pretty predictable and consistent once you see and understand how each of them approach their style and what their personal like and dislikes are. The good news is that is not the method you as a wrestler live by to try and be the best! It has been proven time and time again a individual no matter the odds or how he has been ranked mean nothing! You can out work your ranking, Regional disadvantages, school disadvantages and coaching and facility disadvantages! You can beat the odds makers! You are a wrestler, your trade is on the Mats not on a forum! Do not have a rank or number give you any doubts about how high you can go! Limitation thinking and letting yourself be pegged by others is your worse enemy! Being the best starts with what you think and believe about yourself! Don't let anyone say other wise!
Let me say this to all the wrestlers out there. The method that the experts use to judge you is pretty predictable and consistent once you see and understand how each of them approach their style and what their personal like and dislikes are. The good news is that is not the method you as a wrestler live by to try and be the best! It has been proven time and time again a individual no matter the odds or how he has been ranked mean nothing! You can out work your ranking, Regional disadvantages, school disadvantages and coaching and facility disadvantages! You can beat the odds makers! You are a wrestler, your trade is on the Mats not on a forum! Do not have a rank or number give you any doubts about how high you can go! Limitation thinking and letting yourself be pegged by others is your worse enemy! Being the best starts with what you think and believe about yourself! Don't let anyone say other wise!
You guys are arguing over pure raw opinion. Other kids beat No.1 kids in the country in the last 12 months and muti- time state champs, Fargo champs, dominantly and they get no consideration because of personal bias and thats ok its sort of fun to knock off the expert fantasy wrestling guru's favorites and be no where on the state Rankings. Rankings are great for to "beat list". just keep wrestling. A real pattern is for the expert to defend when his favorites loses over injuries or sickness but yet not allow the same in anyway for the kids not on his "List". I have seen kids with a stuffy nose defended and then a kid with a broken leg laughed at ...The difference is what school he goes to or the region he lives in.
Bottom line, I enjoy the various opinions and experts. I have learned the pluses and minuses over the years. Bucksman leans towards big name schools with big time schedules and for good reason even though that can lead to a inaccurate approach in some situations. An Eds kids seems to get credit for what he does at Fargo and who beats in the summer but not the same for a kid at a small public school no matter who he beats. I love Bucksmans national break Downs more than State in that it is very useful for our favorite style and summer season. I do believe Bucksman is at least most of the time consistent with his prejudices and opinions and how he forms them, that is a plus. Bottom line agree or disagree he provides a unique arial view of what is going on that no one else is suppling at the level he does.
Boro fan is a good solid ground floor view of Ohio D-3 activities. No other division has a Guru like Borofan who hustles information right from the streets and social networks. Very informative, very entertaining, definitely has his favorites and even "promotes" some kids like their personal manager but he definitely adds some great forum entertainment and is over all a great asset to Ohio wrestling fans hungry for info. He will do nothing but get better as he matures and gets into his mid twenties....I hope he doesn't get bored and quit doing what he does.
Brakeman is the Gem for Ohio Only, Folkstyle only, all division, Story telling, always positive, state ranking right when it counts, once a year Beloved Wrestling Guru!
Three guys , totally different products. Should never be compared to each other because they do completely different services and offer different kinds of products.
We all have our opinions because of who and what we saw on the actual mats in the tournaments we actually were at. We all have opinions because of who we like and talk to in this sport. We all have our favorite coaches and teams we get our info and bias from. No one is right, No one is wrong. Its all human bias and personal taste. Personally over the years I have learned to lean towards the actual results and watching these young men work hard and let them decide that day who is the best. Recognized or not they wrestle and all leave it out there, what we all do on here is secondary and easy.
Looking at this list was wondering who is missing with those credentials.
I am sorry You "feel" that way. I find it interesting how some posters do not think twice at bitterly attacking other posters, wrestlers or families but when a good heart felt ranking or breakdown of their beloved favorite Guru is given they get very very defensive and feel its unfair even though the guru's criticize, judge, breakdown, sometimes slight others even though the might not mean too....Its the nature of what they do. Everyone agree's all these guys do a lot of work to give their own personal takes, biases and guesses on the sport of wrestling. There is no right or wrong again. I thought my analyses of them was heart felt and honest from my biases and experiences......No bitterness anymore than how the guru's break down wrestlers, regions or teams. Simply my take , my read, my thoughts...Take it or leave it. Any one who feels "Bitter" over Guesses and predictions needs to spend more time on the mats working harder to get better. He who Judges should not mind being judged himself. All 3 IMO are pretty good and taking some criticism some better than others.
Falcon81... In all seriousness I was not trying to ruffle your feathers. It was just how it seemed when I came across the post. I have watched your son's... the 2 at Apple Creek and the 1 from Tuslaw. All three are very respectful young men and that is props to you!
I was just simply stating that you seemed to be throwing things out there that made it seem as if you were bothered by the fact that your sons were not recognized as high as they should be (which in my opinion they were not) in the end of the year rankings.
I wish you and your sons continued success and hope that I did not offend you in anyway because that was NOT my intention.
Falcon81... In all seriousness I was not trying to ruffle your feathers. It was just how it seemed when I came across the post. I have watched your son's... the 2 at Apple Creek and the 1 from Tuslaw. All three are very respectful young men and that is props to you!
I was just simply stating that you seemed to be throwing things out there that made it seem as if you were bothered by the fact that your sons were not recognized as high as they should be (which in my opinion they were not) in the end of the year rankings.
I wish you and your sons continued success and hope that I did not offend you in anyway because that was NOT my intention.
I appreciate that. Absolutely no offense taken or feathers ruffled. Your honest opinion and how you took something is fair game. Thanks for the comments. Zane and Mark Hall and Zack and Tomasello have trained all week at the OTC in Colorado and are enjoying their spring break training with good friends and some great wrestlers. The journey and love of the sport are obviously what really matters not what us old men argue and debate on these forums. I thought I made it clear I think all 3 Guru's offer a lot to the sport and they all do different jobs not to be compared to one another. Gave my opinion for what its worth some seem to agree some not.....Thats what forums are for.
Let me say this to all the wrestlers out there. The method that the experts use to judge you is pretty predictable and consistent once you see and understand how each of them approach their style and what their personal like and dislikes are. The good news is that is not the method you as a wrestler live by to try and be the best! It has been proven time and time again a individual no matter the odds or how he has been ranked mean nothing! You can out work your ranking, Regional disadvantages, school disadvantages and coaching and facility disadvantages! You can beat the odds makers! You are a wrestler, your trade is on the Mats not on a forum! Do not have a rank or number give you any doubts about how high you can go! Limitation thinking and letting yourself be pegged by others is your worse enemy! Being the best starts with what you think and believe about yourself! Don't let anyone say other wise!
Let me say this, other than the die hard wrestling fans, overzealous parents and relatives nobody really cares about a hs kids ranking all that much. In all the years I've been around the sport I don't ever recalling having an actual conversation with someone upset about their sons/nephew/cousin,etc ranking. They are one persons opinion and nothing more. Some are more informed than others and validate their opinions w/reams of data but in the end what does it really matter? I enjoy following the sport in forums such as this but get really amused when someone's kid doesn't get the cyber ink he/she thinks they deserve. If your kid doesn't care (and 99% dont), why should you? Anyway the big ranking that counts is that they move on in their lives with lessons learned from the greates sport of all that will carry them to future success.
Let me say this, other than the die hard wrestling fans, overzealous parents and relatives nobody really cares about a hs kids ranking all that much. In all the years I've been around the sport I don't ever recalling having an actual conversation with someone upset about their sons/nephew/cousin,etc ranking. They are one persons opinion and nothing more. Some are more informed than others and validate their opinions w/reams of data but in the end what does it really matter? I enjoy following the sport in forums such as this but get really amused when someone's kid doesn't get the cyber ink he/she thinks they deserve. If your kid doesn't care (and 99% dont), why should you? Anyway the big ranking that counts is that they move on in their lives with lessons learned from the greates sport of all that will carry them to future success.
I guess we pretty much agree on that. I still think the 3 guys do a lot for the sport fans but its true it really doesn't make a difference on how or who a kid beats in the next match.
Falcon81, I commend you! It is the opinion of one man! He does the best with the Info he has! In wrestling, as in other sports, anyone on any given day can win.....isn't that why they wrestle?.....Good post!
When I left the Schott, I went right into the baseball season. However, last Thursday, I decided to take a peek and it was refreshing to see Darryl Grayson (182) listed as one of the best 12 in the State at his class. This was not a gimmie for him and like for all the kids that made this list, I bet they felt good too.
The debate can run on and on and on about who's the best or who's missing. Yet, I am grateful to that there are some people who try to give us a "glimpse" of what is happening across the state. Their time and effort alone should be applauded.
Falcon81, I commend you! It is the opinion of one man! He does the best with the Info he has! In wrestling, as in other sports, anyone on any given day can win.....isn't that why they wrestle?.....Good post!
problem with this whole thing is that bucksman pretends to use stats and logistics but if he does not like you or your kid he will not rank him....alas that is why brakemans is a much better ranking do to he separates himself from the personality issues. "OHIO" all class the only way to do this would be take all three state champs at each weight and cross reference any if at all same opponents.
who cares if wrestler a took 4th at some beach blowout tournament beating no-one, or freestyle cmon not the same thing period how many kids aa at Fargo and do nothing in folk-style? or kids that win state championships in folk-style and never aa? apples and oranges.
problem with this whole thing is that bucksman pretends to use stats and logistics but if he does not like you or your kid he will not rank him....alas that is why brakemans is a much better ranking do to he separates himself from the personality issues. "OHIO" all class the only way to do this would be take all three state champs at each weight and cross reference any if at all same opponents.
who cares if wrestler a took 4th at some beach blowout tournament beating no-one, or freestyle cmon not the same thing period how many kids aa at Fargo and do nothing in folk-style? or kids that win state championships in folk-style and never aa? apples and oranges.
We have had non finalists AA in the recent past. Just to make bucksman go crazy, I will throw out the name Neil Birt. The point holds true, though. I don't even see how this is up for debate, putting biases aside.
Obviously there have been Fargo AA's one summer not go onto make the state finals the next in-season here in Ohio. Just didn't happen with Fargo '11 and '12 in-season.
Obviously Neil Birt would fit the exception to the rule, and any right thinking person knows that. As I recall, he kind of backed into his JN FS AA anyway (i.e. "rode the bye").
I think over all the point of the law of large numbers is a AA in Fargo is overall a better overall wrestler than a State finalist in Ohio on Average. There is always exceptions to a numbers average but the weight of evidence can not be argued. Fargo is full of Division 1 thru 3 State champs that go 2 and out or not close to being a AA at Fargo but it is almost unheard of for a Fargo AA not to be a high state placer or champ! Freestyle and Greco will open more college opportunities at the D-1 level than anything else will do. Your son will gain more respect and exposure wrestling D-1 college wrestlers at Fila Juniors with actual college coaches coaching against them than any local pundits or tournaments you can participate in Folkstyle HS wrestling only situations. You can argue for arguments sake or attack the messenger but what I am saying is the absolute truth. The reason some great Ohio State HS Champs don't do Freestyle and Greco is because they tried it and got thumped! The reason some Ohio Greats don't do well in National tournaments is because of Ohio's unique way of calling stalling and making wrestling all about takedowns while discouraging mat time. Do all 3 styles Folkstyle, freestyle and Greco.
Obviously there have been Fargo AA's one summer not go onto make the state finals the next in-season here in Ohio. Just didn't happen with Fargo '11 and '12 in-season.
Obviously Neil Birt would fit the exception to the rule, and any right thinking person knows that. As I recall, he kind of backed into his JN FS AA anyway (i.e. "rode the bye").
And I'm pretty sure the other pool was a meatgrinder even by Fargo standards. I agree with much of what Falcon just said.
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