Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > General Sports > League/School Forums > Elder Panthers

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #511  
Old 05-19-19, 12:41 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
I would agree, but who are some candidates and where would they play? Guess that'll require a big of a projected lineup but I would assume they have enough on the offensive side of the ball, so who from the offense could play some defense and where? Not that a defensive player couldn't find a spot on the offense, but I think it'd be more likely to do it the other way.
The natural two way path is WR/DB, RB/DB/LB. They really don’t have any skill players with size and speed other than Ramsey. Maybe Johnson could play a little bit of Corner? Perhaps Miller could play some WR and DB, but the 3 main WRs/TEs really don’t fit on Defense. Maybe some of the JR OL could be plugged into at DT/NG? But Tolbert is probably the best fit at that size.

Last edited by Omar; 05-19-19 at 01:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #512  
Old 05-21-19, 05:59 AM
foreword foreword is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 03-19-18
Posts: 258
foreword is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
The natural two way path is WR/DB, RB/DB/LB. They really don’t have any skill players with size and speed other than Ramsey. Maybe Johnson could play a little bit of Corner? Perhaps Miller could play some WR and DB, but the 3 main WRs/TEs really don’t fit on Defense. Maybe some of the JR OL could be plugged into at DT/NG? But Tolbert is probably the best fit at that size.
I know at the JV level last year there were a few kids that played both ways for a while at beginning of season......I think Cooper Johnson played some LB in addition to his RB role....Joe Stemler played some LB and FB.....Marco Sabato played both DB and RB......Brian Weber played both LB and RB....and Wandstrat played some WR in addition to his DB role......
Reply With Quote
  #513  
Old 05-21-19, 08:32 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
With the dwindling football numbers at the lower levels, they may not have a choice soon.

For the record, this should never happen at the Freshman and JV levels. It's part of the reason so many kids quit because they never see the field. If you're playing kids both ways at the Freshman and JV levels, it's simply just adding to the numbers problem. If you have to do it at Varsity to win games, then do it - but that also risks your best players getting hurt at a higher rate.

If this football numbers decline is going to continue, Elder is going to have to take a very serious look at expanding their football staff to develop more kids.

Freshman and JV records are completely meaningless. Develop more kids. You don't have a choice.
Reply With Quote
  #514  
Old 05-21-19, 09:09 AM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
With the dwindling football numbers at the lower levels, they may not have a choice soon.

For the record, this should never happen at the Freshman and JV levels. It's part of the reason so many kids quit because they never see the field. If you're playing kids both ways at the Freshman and JV levels, it's simply just adding to the numbers problem. If you have to do it at Varsity to win games, then do it - but that also risks your best players getting hurt at a higher rate.

If this football numbers decline is going to continue, Elder is going to have to take a very serious look at expanding their football staff to develop more kids.

Freshman and JV records are completely meaningless. Develop more kids. You don't have a choice.
JV is for development, they know which kids can play and which cannot. This gives them a chance to find a Varsity position sooner. This is you talking out of your azz again. I like how you think you can wave a wand to “develop” just any kid. How an adult has such little knowledge of biology is stunning. Yeah, develop that 5 ft 4, 110 lbs kid into a LB, that’s realistic
Reply With Quote
  #515  
Old 05-21-19, 10:19 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
I find it very strange that so many people don't think having great coaches and development plans would make a difference. I really don't get it. Do other schools so easily give up on that 120lb kid too when they are freshman? You do realize there are 4 years to grow? Why have any coaches then?

For the most part, Elder kids are just like 99% of the other kids they will face all season. To say our kids are "different" is ludicrous. Are there a small amount of programs where the absolute studs concentrate to - yes, absolutely - but they're right there with the majority of other high caliber D1 schools.

If they're not going to recruit, they have to get better at development. It's just a fact.
Reply With Quote
  #516  
Old 05-21-19, 10:44 AM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
I find it very strange that so many people don't think having great coaches and development plans would make a difference. I really don't get it. Do other schools so easily give up on that 120lb kid too when they are freshman? You do realize there are 4 years to grow? Why have any coaches then?

For the most part, Elder kids are just like 99% of the other kids they will face all season. To say our kids are "different" is ludicrous. Are there a small amount of programs where the absolute studs concentrate to - yes, absolutely - but they're right there with the majority of other high caliber D1 schools.

If they're not going to recruit, they have to get better at development. It's just a fact.
I find it strange you don’t understand everyone has physical limitations. It’s very rare a kid just shoots up in terms of height and weight to become a stud. Odds are if you’re 5-4 110 lbs as a freshman, you might graduate at 5-8 150.

You keep thinking “development” means taking a scrawny dwarf and turning him into someone who can at least play Varsity. That’s not how it works.
Reply With Quote
  #517  
Old 05-21-19, 10:54 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
"Scrawny dwarfs" (your words, not mine) usually don't go out for football. Kids that play football are kids that have played football.

And if year after year, you get less and less 6 foot, 200lb kids, then what's the alternative? Seriously?

How do you plan to find 22-30 D1 capable football players in a mix of 55 kids? Just by hoping they are genetically inclined? Great plan. Hope.

In a scenario where less kids are playing and enrollment is declining, player development is THE MOST important factor. There is no "next man up".
Reply With Quote
  #518  
Old 05-21-19, 11:29 AM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
"Scrawny dwarfs" (your words, not mine) usually don't go out for football. Kids that play football are kids that have played football.

And if year after year, you get less and less 6 foot, 200lb kids, then what's the alternative? Seriously?

How do you plan to find 22-30 D1 capable football players in a mix of 55 kids? Just by hoping they are genetically inclined? Great plan. Hope.

In a scenario where less kids are playing and enrollment is declining, player development is THE MOST important factor. There is no "next man up".
Development includes finding the right position for these kids. The kids listed aren’t D1 athletes, but they have the skill to contribute, maybe even start for 2 yrs. BTW, they’re also not going both ways all game. There’s still kids getting PT when they’re not on the field, but they’re just not good enough to play Varsity. Doesn’t matter how much work they do off the field.


And once again, TALENT is the most important factor. They don’t need to “recruit”, but they’ve got to market. Stop angling to get your kid PT. You want all of these marginal players to get special attention, when 99.99% won’t ever be capable of playing Varsity.
Reply With Quote
  #519  
Old 05-21-19, 12:17 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
This is one area where I agree with trey. Freshmen/JV records don't matter. Is it nice when these teams win GCL? Of course, but in the long run it doesn't matter. The Freshmen team has B games and when there are 80-90 kids I wouldn't expect every kid to play in every game. Still, there are 11 spots on offense, defense and 11 more on special teams. They should be trying to play 22 guys on offense, 22 guys on defense and 5-10 more on special teams. There may be some overlap with guys playing both sides but it's all about developing them. The JV team usually drops to 40-50 kids at most, but again the same 11 shouldn't be playing all the time. Get to 15-16 kids on either side. Use your best players in high leverage situations if you want to win, but get these kids game reps.
Reply With Quote
  #520  
Old 05-21-19, 02:10 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
This is one area where I agree with trey. Freshmen/JV records don't matter. Is it nice when these teams win GCL? Of course, but in the long run it doesn't matter. The Freshmen team has B games and when there are 80-90 kids I wouldn't expect every kid to play in every game. Still, there are 11 spots on offense, defense and 11 more on special teams. They should be trying to play 22 guys on offense, 22 guys on defense and 5-10 more on special teams. There may be some overlap with guys playing both sides but it's all about developing them. The JV team usually drops to 40-50 kids at most, but again the same 11 shouldn't be playing all the time. Get to 15-16 kids on either side. Use your best players in high leverage situations if you want to win, but get these kids game reps.
Nobody said they played all game. They’re trying to find the best position for these kids where they can contribute on Varsity.
Reply With Quote
  #521  
Old 05-21-19, 02:13 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
He's not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about a better strategy for player development.

Even with recruiting/finding/attracting stronger athletes, this is still needed.
Reply With Quote
  #522  
Old 05-21-19, 02:31 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Nobody said they played all game. They’re trying to find the best position for these kids where they can contribute on Varsity.
I get that, but there is still room to be playing more guys for developmental purposes. The scoreboard on Saturdays or Thursdays doesn't affect the scoreboard on Fridays. The growth of the player(s) do(es).
Reply With Quote
  #523  
Old 05-21-19, 02:33 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
He's not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about a better strategy for player development.

Even with recruiting/finding/attracting stronger athletes, this is still needed.
This rising Jr class is unique in that there’s more than a few kids who could contribute but are playing behind D1 Srs. They still need to figure out what to do with Miller as well. He should be playing somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #524  
Old 05-21-19, 03:20 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
Again, this is irregardless of circumstances for any and all classes. It's good to do as a developmental practice, for both the strong and weak classes.
Reply With Quote
  #525  
Old 05-21-19, 03:40 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
Again, this is irregardless of circumstances for any and all classes. It's good to do as a developmental practice, for both the strong and weak classes.
Playing time is finite. Why is that concept always so difficult to grasp? You can’t inefficiently allocate your resources to a philosophy with a low payout. Someone like Mark Miller is a very rare exception. Playing 4 kids at QB hoping to find a diamond in the rough is just not a good idea.
Reply With Quote
  #526  
Old 05-21-19, 03:41 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
Playing time is finite. Why is that concept always so difficult to grasp? You can’t inefficiently allocate your resources to a philosophy with a low payout.
Maybe it is too difficult, because I have no idea what this means.
Reply With Quote
  #527  
Old 05-21-19, 04:04 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
Maybe it is too difficult, because I have no idea what this means.
You want everyone to get PT, but there’s only so many minutes in a Frosh/JV game. Occasionally, a kid will come out of nowhere to develop into a stud, but that’s extremely rare. Pinning your entire philosophy on how to manage a program based on the assumption almost anyone can be good with enough reps is ineffective
Reply With Quote
  #528  
Old 05-22-19, 07:02 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
You want everyone to get PT, but there’s only so many minutes in a Frosh/JV game. Occasionally, a kid will come out of nowhere to develop into a stud, but that’s extremely rare. Pinning your entire philosophy on how to manage a program based on the assumption almost anyone can be good with enough reps is ineffective
Playing more kids at the lower levels doesn't mean playing everyone. You're pulling a trey and taking what's being said to the extreme other side of the argument. There should not be any kids playing both ways as Freshmen and really neither should there be on JV.

Playing 3 QBs worked back in 2010 when they had Lind, Moore and Kenning. Lind was the best as a Freshmen, was injured as a sophomore and ended up as a DB. Moore ended up as the Varsity QB and Kenning as a WR. You can say that's a rare case, but that's exactly why you do it.
Reply With Quote
  #529  
Old 05-22-19, 11:39 AM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Playing more kids at the lower levels doesn't mean playing everyone. You're pulling a trey and taking what's being said to the extreme other side of the argument. There should not be any kids playing both ways as Freshmen and really neither should there be on JV.

Playing 3 QBs worked back in 2010 when they had Lind, Moore and Kenning. Lind was the best as a Freshmen, was injured as a sophomore and ended up as a DB. Moore ended up as the Varsity QB and Kenning as a WR. You can say that's a rare case, but that's exactly why you do it.
That’s my point. It’s ok to do it when you feel like you have 3 Legit QBs, but it’s not something you have to EVERY yr out of principle.
Reply With Quote
  #530  
Old 05-22-19, 11:55 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar View Post
That’s my point. It’s ok to do it when you feel like you have 3 Legit QBs, but it’s not something you have to EVERY yr out of principle.
And I disagree. It should be done most years/every year. You never know when kids will decide to transfer, quit the sport altogether, etc. If I went back to my freshmen year, the number of kids who left or quit football out of the starting 22, it'd be in the double digits. That's probably the extreme because we had 90+ kids on the team, but off the top of my head we had - 6 defensive players and 4-5 offensive players that either left the school or quit.
Reply With Quote
  #531  
Old 05-22-19, 05:11 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
And I disagree. It should be done most years/every year. You never know when kids will decide to transfer, quit the sport altogether, etc. If I went back to my freshmen year, the number of kids who left or quit football out of the starting 22, it'd be in the double digits. That's probably the extreme because we had 90+ kids on the team, but off the top of my head we had - 6 defensive players and 4-5 offensive players that either left the school or quit.
But your class was probably the best Frosh class in recent memory. When Ramsey or Bittner were the QBs, there was no need to rotate. All I’m saying is you play it by ear rather than a set rule.
Reply With Quote
  #532  
Old 05-23-19, 07:24 AM
ElderHSfan02 ElderHSfan02 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 10-31-02
Posts: 1,784
ElderHSfan02 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to ElderHSfan02
I think kids playing both ways as a freshman and maybe even JV is okay. Why typecast a kid as a freshman to one side of the ball at a young age when they have so much development left? As long as they are not playing every snap on both sides of the ball then that is the way to go especially with the lower numbers recently. A kid could play WR 1 quarter and then switch over to CB the next quarter or half. There are a lot of ways they could do it and still get a lot of playing time for those that warrant it. For Varsity, I think Elder being big school Division 1, there might be 1 player come around every few years that could handle going both ways. There is still plenty of depth on the Varsity with the combined junior/seniors and a handful of sophomores where Elder does not have to resort to playing kids both ways. There could be good use of playing a kid both ways on Varsity in situations, but I don't think Elder has done that much if ever.
Reply With Quote
  #533  
Old 05-23-19, 10:07 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
The moral of the story is that every kid should be getting development. There shouldn't be any kids standing on the sidelines watching at Freshman and JV practices.

Yes, we all know there are some kids that will get more attention than others, and rightfully so, but that shouldn't come with some kids getting none.

We all know kids who rarely ever got the chance to play but know they were capable as they grew and got older.
Reply With Quote
  #534  
Old 05-23-19, 11:04 AM
ElderHSfan02 ElderHSfan02 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 10-31-02
Posts: 1,784
ElderHSfan02 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to ElderHSfan02
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
We all know kids who rarely ever got the chance to play but know they were capable as they grew and got older.
And we all know kids that were not starters on their freshman team that ended up starting varsity while some kids who were starters on their freshman team ended up quitting for whatever reason or didn't start on varsity. It works both ways. I think Elder does a good job. The GCL has B games and Elder even schedules a B game or two outside of the GCL schedule. I don't think there are any kids really not getting their opportunity. You can only play 11 though and the coach will have to make the hard call on who the starter is. I would trust their opinion over any of ours since they are at practice every day and studying the game films.
Reply With Quote
  #535  
Old 05-23-19, 01:00 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
Actually, you play 22, and potentially up to 30 for special teams. That's alot of kids that have to make an impact.

Do we know how many freshman are no longer going to be playing football after last season? I've heard up to like 20 kids aren't coming back, which leaves a JV team of 30. My question is, are these kids not coming back because of lack of playing time, and basically being bored standing around until they got 3 plays in the B game?

Of those 20 kids quitting, you can't tell me all 20 would have zero chance of being a varsity contributor with some focused development over 3 years.

I'm coming from the angle of less numbers. It really doesn't matter what they did in the past. They've had the numbers. But with dwindling football numbers and dwindling enrollment, you cannot afford to lose almost half your freshman roster. It has to be deeper than "they weren't going to play anyway".

And there's no way you can continue to compete in D1 GCL with maybe 50 kids on your varsity roster. After the current freshman class (going to be sophomores), I think you're going to start to see some drastic football decline., both in numbers and performance.
Reply With Quote
  #536  
Old 05-23-19, 01:15 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Kids get more than 3 plays in a B game. I'm on your side of this argument but when you say dumb stuff like that it really makes it hard to be.
Reply With Quote
  #537  
Old 05-23-19, 01:36 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 11-11-18
Posts: 799
OldSchoolPanther is on a distinguished road
B games are only a small part of the solution, and in all honesty, aren't really doing much to develop. It gives the kids a chance to play, that's pretty much it, which is a good thing.

I'm mostly talking about in-season and off-season skill development, and for all sports, not just football. The development where coaches are involved with hands-on skill development seems to be limited to a select few (coaches and kids), and everyone else has to "figure it out" on their own.

Yes, I know coaches can't be everywhere for everyone. But that's what I'm saying. In order to do this, you're going to need more coaches or more free resources to help with this. With significantly smaller numbers, all of your players have to be very good and capable of contributing (making 15 C players into B players would have a huge impact on success).
Reply With Quote
  #538  
Old 05-23-19, 02:33 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post

making 15 C players into B players would have a huge impact on success.
False. Did you see the Colerain game? They needed far more than just more “B” players.
Reply With Quote
  #539  
Old 05-23-19, 02:34 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 14,769
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Specifically what do you mean? Since we're talking football, I know each position group has an individual coach. They work on footwork, timing, hands, etc. In-season I think theyre' fine. Off-season, coaches are only allowed minimal contact throughout the year, so if we're talking weight room and conditioning then yes I agree another strength/conditioning coach could help there. But from a weight-room or conditioning standpoint the kids need to hold themselves and their teammates accountable. Going through the motions or skipping reps when people aren't looking isn't helping yourself or the team.

B-games are a huge part of football though because the guys who aren't on the 1st/2nd team - the 22-deep depth chart so to speak - get a chance at live action. Some guys may start a B game over another because they look great in practice, then fold when the lights come on.
Reply With Quote
  #540  
Old 05-23-19, 02:43 PM
Omar Omar is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-05-16
Posts: 2,881
Omar is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Specifically what do you mean? Since we're talking football, I know each position group has an individual coach. They work on footwork, timing, hands, etc. In-season I think theyre' fine. Off-season, coaches are only allowed minimal contact throughout the year, so if we're talking weight room and conditioning then yes I agree another strength/conditioning coach could help there. But from a weight-room or conditioning standpoint the kids need to hold themselves and their teammates accountable. Going through the motions or skipping reps when people aren't looking isn't helping yourself or the team.

B-games are a huge part of football though because the guys who aren't on the 1st/2nd team - the 22-deep depth chart so to speak - get a chance at live action. Some guys may start a B game over another because they look great in practice, then fold when the lights come on.
I’m tired of this moronic non sense from a guy who only cares about seeing his kid get PT. Player development matters, but talent is more important. Elder is never beating a team like Colerain or Winton Woods until they get athletes on Defense. And if this new fitness center doesn’t draw those kids in, they’ll never be better than 6-4/7-3.

And I’m trying to be respectful, but too many of you are ignoring the most blatant reality. How many times does the Defense have to get obliterated by these Offenses with speed before you stop dancing around the issue? Nothing really matters until they get that solved. That’s it. There’s really nothing else worth talking about. Everything else is immaterial.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
STVM Football 2019 StarstoShine Football 32 02-06-19 07:40 PM
Barberton: A Coaching Legacy frecriss Barberton Magics 18 11-28-18 11:02 AM
Centerville Football 2018 Recap and 2019 Future ELKSONE Football 39 11-02-18 07:36 AM
Nationwide High School Football Participation Drops For Second Straight Year Yappi Football 8 08-26-18 07:23 PM
Massillon Football Program: Booster Club DB135 Massillon Tigers 1 08-24-17 09:59 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz