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  #1  
Old 08-12-18, 11:47 AM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Fix US Soccer by fixing college soccer

This article from ESPN outlines a good discussion on changing college soccer to a two-season sport because as college soccer currently exists (as originially established in 1959) it is a "joke".

http://www.espn.com/sports/soccer/st...sing-us-talent

The excuses that some provide to keep the current system, are in my opinion, are a joke as well. (Example: Field conflicts/challenges with lacrosse? Already exists and are resolved.)

Ultimately, you would get a better soccer product and a better student with the changes.

The real question I have is how do we get the NCAA motivated enough to make the necessary changes to save the sport?
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  #2  
Old 08-12-18, 12:06 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Most quality college soccer programs have a spring season

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  #3  
Old 08-12-18, 10:44 PM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Most quality college soccer programs have a spring season

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If you truly knew anything about college soccer, you would know that the spring season means NOTHING. You are allowed 4 dates to play whatever and none of it counts.

Can you name a collegiate soccer champion crowned in the spring? Of course not, spring is meaningless.

Most college soccer teams in the spring travel no more than a reasonable bus/van drive from their school to compete.
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Old 08-12-18, 11:12 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
If you truly knew anything about college soccer, you would know that the spring season means NOTHING. You are allowed 4 dates to play whatever and none of it counts.

Can you name a collegiate soccer champion crowned in the spring? Of course not, spring is meaningless.

Most college soccer teams in the spring travel no more than a reasonable bus/van drive from their school to compete.
My point is they are playing, they are training, and they are working to be better. Do you need a trophy for something for it to be beneficial? It's not like the season is over in Nov/Dec and then it's "see you guys next summer".

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  #5  
Old 08-13-18, 08:34 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Spring season is worthless. It's not even really "playing" or "training" as restricted as it is. The programs are also doing the whole spring with maybe 50% of their roster (no graduating seniors, transfers out, no incoming players, etc.).

The issues exist far before college soccer though. The players are 18 years old by then. What about the first 14+ years of their development? That's where more emphasis needs to be put.
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  #6  
Old 08-13-18, 09:57 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Most quality college soccer programs have a spring season
Did you read the article, Philly? It doesn't seem as if you did.

What the article refers to, and I believe sportsfanofyear's purpose in posting it, is to draw attention to the fact that as of now collegiate soccer is terribly compressed and perhaps too physically demanding. The article alludes to more meaningful games and a more meaningful spring season (sounds a bit like DA- & ECNL-speak). According to Sasho Cirovski, Maryland's head coach:

Instead of cramming all of the regular-season games in before Thanksgiving, he wants Division I men's soccer to reduce the number of games from 25 to 23 while simultaneously extending the season into the spring, following a schedule similar to collegiate golf and tennis. For most of the season, teams would play just one game a week, taking a break before Thanksgiving and picking back up again in February. They'd finish up their regular season in May and hold the College Cup over two weeks in June.

US Soccer already implemented a spring program on the men's side. This past spring six universities participated in the program: Clemson, Duke, Georgetown, North Carolina, Virginia, and Wake Forest. Sportfanoftheyear asked the following question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
Can you name a collegiate soccer champion crowned in the spring? Of course not, spring is meaningless.
Yes, I can name a champion of spring soccer. North Carolina won the championship of the limited-school spring program.

US Soccer's spring program does differ from NCAA soccer. Here are the differences:
  • In NCAA soccer, matches use a countdown clock with stoppages in the clock if there is an extended stop of play. In the Spring College Program, an upward counting clock is employed, and the referee determines stoppage time.

  • In NCAA soccer, there are unlimited substitutions and a match day roster up to 30 players. In the first half of a match, if a player is subbed off, they cannot return until the second half. In the second half, there are unlimited substitutions. In the Spring College Program, match day rosters cannot have more than 18 players, and there are a maximum of three substitutions the whole match. Players who are subbed off cannot return.

  • In NCAA soccer, if the match is tied at the end of regulation, two-10 minute golden goal overtime periods are employed. If the match is still tied at the end of regulation, the match stands as a draw in regular season matches. In the Spring College Program, the draw stands at the end of regulation.

  • In NCAA soccer, there can be up to three matches in a calendar week. In the Spring College Program, there is only one match per week.

US Soccer is looking to expand the program and add more schools for Spring 2019. It will be interesting to see how the program evolves and if it will actually be implemented at the NCAA level. If so, I would look for recruiting to be changed given that there are roster size limitations as well as subbing rules that are aligned with FIFA standards. This is a men's program and it seems like the discussion here would be be better in the boy's forum. As of now there are no plans by US Soccer to implement as similar program for the ladies.

Not all are in favor of the two-semester model. As Notre Dame's coach, Bobby Clark, states:

"We're training to develop engineers and doctors, not just training soccer players," he said. "But sometimes the sports stars take over. They forget it's supposed to be about an education."

Clark has a valid point in that college is primarily about education but not everyone agrees with his viewpoint. Maryland's Cirovski believes that the academic schedule will be better. I'm not sure I agree with Cirovski unless he is considering that the game schedule/travel schedule is more manageable when academic considerations are taken into account.

Here is more about US Soccer's spring program

Last edited by Rohbino; 08-13-18 at 10:18 AM..
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  #7  
Old 08-13-18, 12:10 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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The "Spring College Program" is fluff. ANY school can choose to do what that "program" has done. Heck, they choose to do their own rules in fall exhibitions (3 30-minute periods, as an example). In a non-championship season event, anything can be done. Of course the "program" will only have one match per week. Every program is limited on how many days they can play. The typical spring is playing 40-60 "matches" against 2+ opponents in the same day.

Oh, 18-player roster? How fancy. I'd venture to say most DI programs have 18 or less on their spring rosters anyway (especially on the men's side).

No overtime?! Never once played any overtime in ANY exhibition unless it was previously communicated. Some jump straight to penalty kicks.

In the end, college soccer won't be seeing any changes. The changes it needs to see FIRST need to happen before any positive developmental changes happen. Until soccer starts making some money, NCAA (and its member schools) won't care about the sport.
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  #8  
Old 08-13-18, 03:31 PM
Irwin20 Irwin20 is offline
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NCAA WOMANS programs use an upward counting clock. (at least in the matches I've seen)
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  #9  
Old 08-14-18, 09:39 AM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
NCAA WOMANS programs use an upward counting clock. (at least in the matches I've seen)
Here is a link to the video of last year's NCAA women's championship game. Note how the clock counts downward. https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-wo...-stanford-ucla

In exhibition and spring games, you sometimes see the clock counting up because they don't count. With exhibition games the coaches will modify the rules (such as 3 - 30 minute periods or unlimited subs, etc.)
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  #10  
Old 08-14-18, 11:10 AM
Irwin20 Irwin20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
Here is a link to the video of last year's NCAA women's championship game. Note how the clock counts downward. https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-wo...-stanford-ucla

In exhibition and spring games, you sometimes see the clock counting up because they don't count. With exhibition games the coaches will modify the rules (such as 3 - 30 minute periods or unlimited subs, etc.)
ok, every UC game I attended last year the clock worked up to 90 minutes, no biggie.
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  #11  
Old 08-15-18, 09:09 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
The "Spring College Program" is fluff. ANY school can choose to do what that "program" has done. Heck, they choose to do their own rules in fall exhibitions (3 30-minute periods, as an example). In a non-championship season event, anything can be done. Of course the "program" will only have one match per week. Every program is limited on how many days they can play. The typical spring is playing 40-60 "matches" against 2+ opponents in the same day.

Oh, 18-player roster? How fancy. I'd venture to say most DI programs have 18 or less on their spring rosters anyway (especially on the men's side).

No overtime?! Never once played any overtime in ANY exhibition unless it was previously communicated. Some jump straight to penalty kicks.

In the end, college soccer won't be seeing any changes. The changes it needs to see FIRST need to happen before any positive developmental changes happen. Until soccer starts making some money, NCAA (and its member schools) won't care about the sport.
Perhaps the Spring College Program is fluff but it was organized in a particular manner and all schools that participated played by the same rules. There was no "they choose to do their own rules...." If, indeed, college soccer goes to a two season model or one season from fall to late spring, however it is looked at, there will be less games per week and there will be no arbitrary rules that schools will pick and choose from of which they will follow or not follow.

The spring program was put forth by US Soccer as an exploratory/experimental trial and will probably be expanded in the future. There is no talk of the program being implemented on the women's side but I guess that can change since it is a dynamic work in progress. Personally I would not be opposed to collegiate soccer governance being taken out of the hands of the NCAA and oversight given to another entity. I am not sure that the Federation is the correct entity given its record of questionable decisions and implementation of other programs. I would like to see the season expanded to a fall to late spring model but I also have my doubts that it will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin20 View Post
ok, every UC game I attended last year the clock worked up to 90 minutes, no biggie.
The larger point isn't if the clock goes up or down. More important is that the referee determines stoppage time and not a time keeper that is setting "stoppage time" by arbitrarily stopping the clock. College and high school soccer are the only two soccer venues that I can think of in which the referee isn't determining stoppage time.
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  #12  
Old 08-15-18, 02:28 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
Perhaps the Spring College Program is fluff but it was organized in a particular manner and all schools that participated played by the same rules. There was no "they choose to do their own rules...." If, indeed, college soccer goes to a two season model or one season from fall to late spring, however it is looked at, there will be less games per week and there will be no arbitrary rules that schools will pick and choose from of which they will follow or not follow.

The spring program was put forth by US Soccer as an exploratory/experimental trial and will probably be expanded in the future. There is no talk of the program being implemented on the women's side but I guess that can change since it is a dynamic work in progress. Personally I would not be opposed to collegiate soccer governance being taken out of the hands of the NCAA and oversight given to another entity. I am not sure that the Federation is the correct entity given its record of questionable decisions and implementation of other programs. I would like to see the season expanded to a fall to late spring model but I also have my doubts that it will be.
No truer words could EVER be spoken!

There won't be a change in college soccer for numerous years, if there ever is a change (that is: the split season or fall/spring season). The NCAA doesn't care enough. Schools don't care enough. Conferences don't care enough. Heck, most coaches don't care enough. Until there's one thing that changes for college soccer, there won't be changes: positive cash flow.

These "Spring College Program" rules CAN be implemented by anyone and everyone. If coaches wanted to see a change, they could implement them by themselves. It's not hard. I coached in college for 8 years. It's not hard to do that. No one "needs" the USSF to be the driving factor in these arbitrary rules for exhibitions. In all reality, if college coaches wanted to change the substitution style, they COULD on their own program. Once you sub out, you're done. Period.

The USSF program could probably be something more. What could that be? Possibly a bigger separation of the "Power 5" conferences from the rest of the NCAA. That's surely the move that those conferences want in all sports. And, that's not necessarily a good thing for anyone or anything EXCEPT those who are raking in the dough.
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  #13  
Old 08-17-18, 07:16 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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The NCAA has no other sport that continues over the whole year and would have to consider them all. Seniors don't play in Spring and are focused on graduating. Redshirt freshman get their first action in the Spring. Coaches are focused on development for fall and working lineups and players into the mix. Travel in the Spring is to a minimum and besides can you imagine the inconsistency of teams in August and then in May. A team with a poor Fall and banner Spring may be left out of post season. What I would like to see in the Spring are games combined with college showcases at preferred locations and scheduled at fields there are youngsters already at.
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Old 08-17-18, 07:56 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
The NCAA has no other sport that continues over the whole year and would have to consider them all. Seniors don't play in Spring and are focused on graduating. Redshirt freshman get their first action in the Spring. Coaches are focused on development for fall and working lineups and players into the mix. Travel in the Spring is to a minimum and besides can you imagine the inconsistency of teams in August and then in May. A team with a poor Fall and banner Spring may be left out of post season. What I would like to see in the Spring are games combined with college showcases at preferred locations and scheduled at fields there are youngsters already at.
Basketball is a two semester sport. Swimming & diving. Track (as most do indoor and outdoor track). Wrestling. Baseball extends into the summer. Believe it or not, baseball has been throwing around the idea of playing "competitive" games in the fall to ease up on the spring schedule.
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Old 08-17-18, 12:15 PM
Conan73 Conan73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
Basketball is a two semester sport. Swimming & diving. Track (as most do indoor and outdoor track). Wrestling. Baseball extends into the summer. Believe it or not, baseball has been throwing around the idea of playing "competitive" games in the fall to ease up on the spring schedule.
Right....and for soccer, the idea would be to have a Fall season, take a break over the winter months and reconvene in the spring. This could be manageable if games are reduced to 1 per week, with the exception of the tournament. Also, most college soccer players were used to year round soccer via club/high school...
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Old 08-17-18, 12:49 PM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
The larger point isn't if the clock goes up or down. More important is that the referee determines stoppage time and not a time keeper that is setting "stoppage time" by arbitrarily stopping the clock. College and high school soccer are the only two soccer venues that I can think of in which the referee isn't determining stoppage time.
This is not how it works. The timekeeper stops and starts the clock as directed from the referee.
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Old 08-17-18, 01:25 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conan73 View Post
Right....and for soccer, the idea would be to have a Fall season, take a break over the winter months and reconvene in the spring. This could be manageable if games are reduced to 1 per week, with the exception of the tournament. Also, most college soccer players were used to year round soccer via club/high school...
The whole goal is to have 1 game per week. That's exactly the move. Reduce out-of-class time. Reduce strain on the body.
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Old 08-17-18, 01:28 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
The whole goal is to have 1 game per week. That's exactly the move. Reduce out-of-class time. Reduce strain on the body.
Funny, that is one of the same goals for the DA and they get lambasted on this site.

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Old 08-17-18, 06:29 PM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Funny, that is one of the same goals for the DA and they get lambasted on this site.
With college soccer, the player gets educated. With DA, they get taken.
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Old 08-17-18, 08:57 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Funny, that is one of the same goals for the DA and they get lambasted on this site.
I stay out of those discussions, no one is changing anyone's minds on them.

The biggest qualm (probably) with DA isn't the one game a week structure. It's the "mandate" that doesn't allow them to play HS.
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Old 08-29-18, 11:00 AM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
This article from ESPN outlines a good discussion on changing college soccer to a two-season sport because as college soccer currently exists (as originially established in 1959) it is a "joke".

http://www.espn.com/sports/soccer/st...sing-us-talent

The excuses that some provide to keep the current system, are in my opinion, are a joke as well. (Example: Field conflicts/challenges with lacrosse? Already exists and are resolved.)

Ultimately, you would get a better soccer product and a better student with the changes.

The real question I have is how do we get the NCAA motivated enough to make the necessary changes to save the sport?
If you truly believe that the College Soccer program is the issue then we have bigger problems. If these men and women aren't already in the US Soccer National program by the time they are in College it is highly unlikely they will get in based on playing "year round" in College. The real problem is around the 'ol mighty dollar and the youth development/club program becoming a rich man's sport. Another big factor for US Soccer is that there are so many sports (Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.) that dilutes the athletic talent pool for all of them. The big Soccer countries around the world (Germany, France, Brazil, etc.) don't have all these sports diluting their athletes away from soccer.
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Old 08-29-18, 02:45 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
Another big factor for US Soccer is that there are so many sports (Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.) that dilutes the athletic talent pool for all of them. The big Soccer countries around the world (Germany, France, Brazil, etc.) don't have all these sports diluting their athletes away from soccer.
I'm sorry, but this is one of the most tiring arguments that exists with soccer in the US.

There are over 25 million soccer players in the US. The only country that has more is China. That "diluting" and "talent" and "athleticism" should still, and does still, exist in the 25 million soccer players. Adding another thousand, ten thousand, hundred thousand kids into the mix really going to make the US world soccer powers? There's no way that's the case.

Multiple sports exist in every country. Iceland has more hockey players than they do soccer players. The country is 300,000ish people. Every other "big soccer country" has basketball, they have cricket, etc. American football exists in the Netherlands. Baseball exists in Belgium. Every country has "competition" for sports. Swimming, skating, hockey, and other sports are massively popular around the world.

Video games exist elsewhere. In the end, the culture is what is different. The US just does not have a "soccer culture" yet, if ever. One can go look at any club, HS, or college coach. You can probably come across a good percentage (50+%) of coaches that would rather watch college football, NFL, NBA, etc. more than they do any soccer games. In fact, the television viewership numbers for soccer games show that's probably the case.

Until the "soccer first" people in the US actually have a culture of soccer, we cannot expect the US to have a great impact in the world of soccer. What about the women's game? If anyone is paying attention, there's been massive failures recently with the women and people are asking: are we headed in the right direction with the USWNT? Other countries are catching or have caught up already to the women. How long will it take to surpass? Just taking "athleticism" doesn't work in soccer around the world.
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Old 08-29-18, 03:33 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
I'm sorry, but this is one of the most tiring arguments that exists with soccer in the US.

There are over 25 million soccer players in the US. The only country that has more is China. That "diluting" and "talent" and "athleticism" should still, and does still, exist in the 25 million soccer players. Adding another thousand, ten thousand, hundred thousand kids into the mix really going to make the US world soccer powers? There's no way that's the case.

Multiple sports exist in every country. Iceland has more hockey players than they do soccer players. The country is 300,000ish people. Every other "big soccer country" has basketball, they have cricket, etc. American football exists in the Netherlands. Baseball exists in Belgium. Every country has "competition" for sports. Swimming, skating, hockey, and other sports are massively popular around the world.

Video games exist elsewhere. In the end, the culture is what is different. The US just does not have a "soccer culture" yet, if ever. One can go look at any club, HS, or college coach. You can probably come across a good percentage (50+%) of coaches that would rather watch college football, NFL, NBA, etc. more than they do any soccer games. In fact, the television viewership numbers for soccer games show that's probably the case.

Until the "soccer first" people in the US actually have a culture of soccer, we cannot expect the US to have a great impact in the world of soccer. What about the women's game? If anyone is paying attention, there's been massive failures recently with the women and people are asking: are we headed in the right direction with the USWNT? Other countries are catching or have caught up already to the women. How long will it take to surpass? Just taking "athleticism" doesn't work in soccer around the world.
I've been telling people for years, and getting called sexist among the many names, when I've said that the US dominance in woman's soccer has in large part been due to the fact that we "allowed" woman to participate way before other nations. Add in a large pool, not a soccer culture but an intense competitive sports culture, and that's why the US has been so successful. It's only a matter of time before our head start isn't a factor anymore, and the rest of the world catches up and US woman's soccer competes similarly to how the men do. It's not that US woman's soccer has been doing something different that the men's side hasn't been able to figure out. They've just been doing it against against fewer and less competent competition, giving the appearance of being better than the men.

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Old 08-30-18, 08:07 AM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
I've been telling people for years, and getting called sexist among the many names, when I've said that the US dominance in woman's soccer has in large part been due to the fact that we "allowed" woman to participate way before other nations. Add in a large pool, not a soccer culture but an intense competitive sports culture, and that's why the US has been so successful. It's only a matter of time before our head start isn't a factor anymore, and the rest of the world catches up and US woman's soccer competes similarly to how the men do. It's not that US woman's soccer has been doing something different that the men's side hasn't been able to figure out. They've just been doing it against against fewer and less competent competition, giving the appearance of being better than the men.
All are great points! Accurate. I also applaud the US for creating an environment for women to succeed in sports (as well as other areas). Other countries just do a better job than US in implementing and making changes.
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