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  #1  
Old 01-11-17, 03:15 AM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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The Only way to a Great America is........

Through Libertarian Party ideals.

If there are any aspects of this platform you disagree with, please explain.

https://www.lp.org/platform/
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  #2  
Old 01-11-17, 09:10 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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You're late, cuz. Just wake up from the bender that the Wolverweasels' end-of-season collapse put you on ? See ya in about 39 months



at goofballtom!!
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  #3  
Old 01-11-17, 09:35 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
You're late, cuz. Just wake up from the bender that the Wolverweasels' end-of-season collapse put you on ? See ya in about 39 months



at goofballtom!!
We'll see who is laughing in 4 years, after Trump's massive spending and the inevitable inflation which hurts his supposed base(middle class) and protectionism from free trade(see big Union protection) have taken hold.

He is essentially a democrat that was voted in because he had an (R) next to his name at the ballot box.

And Hillary would have been even worse.

I'm not sure which is more depressing, the fact that these two got nominated, or that 94.3 percent of the American public were gullible enough to vote for one of them.

There is a reason why other parties are not invited to the debates, because the leaders of the sheep( Democrats and Republicans) don't want the American people to know there are better options out there.
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  #4  
Old 01-11-17, 10:01 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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The LP will never make meaningful strides until it becomes more realistic, starting with disowning anarchists and anarcho-capitalists.
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  #5  
Old 01-11-17, 10:06 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
The LP will never make meaningful strides until it becomes more realistic, starting with disowning anarchists and anarcho-capitalists.
And working toward a meaningful presence at the state level. Until then, they won't be a player on the big stage.
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  #6  
Old 01-11-17, 10:31 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
The LP will never make meaningful strides until it becomes more realistic, starting with disowning anarchists and anarcho-capitalists.

I agree to a point, but there are extremists in both the Republican and Democrat parties too.

I do not believe anarchists are a viable option, however limiting the role of government to defense, upholding contacts(no fraud, etc.), protection from others and helping those in distress should be an objective the American public deserve to hear and strive for.

As for your objection to Anarcho-capitalism, I have to admit there are many aspects of this I find appealing, and I believe the American public will and do also, given the platform. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Once again, many Americans are of the belief through media indocrination that there are two and only two options.

I ask you, how many people do you know that before the election last November stated, "I'm holding my nose and voting for Trump/Hillary, or they're the only options. How sad that we accept these two as the only options, when there are much better alternatives.
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  #7  
Old 01-11-17, 10:32 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
And working toward a meaningful presence at the state level. Until then, they won't be a player on the big stage.
Every platform can be adjusted, and I agree.
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  #8  
Old 01-11-17, 11:17 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
I agree to a point, but there are extremists in both the Republican and Democrat parties too.

I do not believe anarchists are a viable option, however limiting the role of government to defense, upholding contacts(no fraud, etc.), protection from others and helping those in distress should be an objective the American public deserve to hear and strive for.

As for your objection to Anarcho-capitalism, I have to admit there are many aspects of this I find appealing, and I believe the American public will and do also, given the platform. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Once again, many Americans are of the belief through media indocrination that there are two and only two options.

I ask you, how many people do you know that before the election last November stated, "I'm holding my nose and voting for Trump/Hillary, or they're the only options. How sad that we accept these two as the only options, when there are much better alternatives.
People do not want anarcho-capitalism. It's a fringe of the fringe sort of ideal that does more to paint the Libertarians as Mad Max enthusiasts than as a realistic party.
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  #9  
Old 01-11-17, 11:39 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
People do not want anarcho-capitalism. It's a fringe of the fringe sort of ideal that does more to paint the Libertarians as Mad Max enthusiasts than as a realistic party.
There are some points of anarcho-capitalism that appeal to me, specifically the advocating of the free market versus collusion between business and government that uses force to circumvent the free market.

Back to my original point. There are fringe members of every political party, if you feel there is a need to point out that Libertarians must disown extremists, you should and must expect that the Republicans and Democrats do the same, that would however involve each party disowning a fairly large portion of it's base.
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  #10  
Old 01-11-17, 11:43 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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That's not so much anarcho-capitalism as it is simple free market economics as opposed to the neoliberal economics we've been stuck with since the Reagan-Thatcher era.

Those two parties do reject radical right and left wing fringe ideologies. Republicans don't go around letting people call them fascists and Democrats (not Progressives) do not want to be associated with socialists, communists, or Marxists in general.
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  #11  
Old 01-12-17, 12:28 AM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
That's not so much anarcho-capitalism as it is simple free market economics as opposed to the neoliberal economics we've been stuck with since the Reagan-Thatcher era.

Those two parties do reject radical right and left wing fringe ideologies. Republicans don't go around letting people call them fascists and Democrats (not Progressives) do not want to be associated with socialists, communists, or Marxists in general.

They might not go around letting people call them fascists and socialists, but indeed each party contains a portion of both, and if I recall Bernie Sanders who ran as a democrat is a self proclaimed socialist, and received a large amount of delegate support to boot.
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  #12  
Old 01-12-17, 02:01 AM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Bernie ran as a Democrat for exposure but was rejected by the party.

You're missing the point. Which party people decide to align with isn't the issue, it's how the party responds. The LP does absolutely nothing about anarchists and AnCaps. They practically embrace them.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-17, 02:28 AM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Bernie ran as a Democrat for exposure but was rejected by the party.

You're missing the point. Which party people decide to align with isn't the issue, it's how the party responds. The LP does absolutely nothing about anarchists and AnCaps. They practically embrace them.
I still am not sure that I see where Libertarians embrace those two groups. Sure there are members that exist, but as stated so are extremes on the other parties side also.

My point is again that the Libertarian Party is not given the same platform to debate the issues that the two corrupt and big government parties are.
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  #14  
Old 01-12-17, 01:35 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
I still am not sure that I see where Libertarians embrace those two groups. Sure there are members that exist, but as stated so are extremes on the other parties side also.
The party's platform is hostile to the idea of the State and government as a whole, only conceding that it exists and that they would have a hard battle in front of them to dissolve it. It's practically an anarchist party disguised as a libertarian party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
My point is again that the Libertarian Party is not given the same platform to debate the issues that the two corrupt and big government parties are.
You're completely changing the subject here.
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  #15  
Old 01-12-17, 01:57 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
The party's platform is hostile to the idea of the State and government as a whole, only conceding that it exists and that they would have a hard battle in front of them to dissolve it. It's practically an anarchist party disguised as a libertarian party.



You're completely changing the subject here.
I am of the opinion that the American public should be able to decide that for themselves and not continue to be subjected to the two corrupt party system we currently have. By not allowing other parties and sources of thought into the process, you are continuing to handcuff the freedom and liberty that Americans deserve.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-17, 01:59 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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I'm a Libertarian, but I currently do not like the Libertarian Party.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-17, 02:00 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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I tend to put Libertarians in the same league as Scientologists and big foot hunters.
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  #18  
Old 01-12-17, 02:02 PM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
I am of the opinion that the American public should be able to decide that for themselves and not continue to be subjected to the two corrupt party system we currently have. By not allowing other parties and sources of thought into the process, you are continuing to handcuff the freedom and liberty that Americans deserve.
Not allowing other parties and sources of thought into the process? They allow them; the problem is not enough people voting for them.
I like some of the their party platform, think other parts are just plain nuts for a modern society.

Last edited by Termite2; 01-12-17 at 02:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-12-17, 03:02 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
Not allowing other parties and sources of thought into the process? They allow them; the problem is not enough people voting for them.
I like some of the their party platform, think other parts are just plain nuts for a modern society.
Not enough people voting for them is a symptom of not allowing them to participate in Nationally Televised debates.

My question to you is do you not think big government(republicans and Democrats) are nuts for modern society?

Redistribution of wealth, restriction to free trade and an open market, government intervention in restriction of how we allocate our retirement through forced taxation aka theft, failing public schooling and housing as directed with our tax dollars(taxation without representation if you will), welfare systems which are not only overly complicated but do nothing but continue to impoverish those that they are meant to benefit, creation of numerous agencies, departments and other bureaucracies which are not only a waste of taxpayer(our money) but are served as a means to employ people that are major contributors to elected officials as paybacks, mismanagement of every taxpayer funded government program, etc.

It is my belief that you and most of the supporters of the two major parties are misguided, and flat out wrong if you think the direction either party has this country going in the right direction.

Bigger government is not working and blindly supporting either of these two parties is what is really nuts in my opinion.
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  #20  
Old 01-12-17, 03:08 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Libertarians don't get into nationally televised debates because as Fish the Second stated a lot of their ideas are nuts. I don't know a single person who doesn't know what a Libertarian is, but they all agree that a lot of the stuff they want simply isn't doable in today's society. That whole Lord of the Flies mentality simply isn't geared for 320 million people and our infastructure.
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  #21  
Old 01-12-17, 04:00 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Libertarians don't get into nationally televised debates because as Fish the Second stated a lot of their ideas are nuts. I don't know a single person who doesn't know what a Libertarian is, but they all agree that a lot of the stuff they want simply isn't doable in today's society. That whole Lord of the Flies mentality simply isn't geared for 320 million people and our infastructure.
Our infrastructure would greatly benefit from the ideals of the Libertarian Party.

If you like, please read their platform and give me specifics of what you disagree with?

Calling their ideas nuts isn't an explanation of what you disagree with. Pointing out specific platform ideas that are you feel are bad and why they would be any worse than what we currently have, as I have done with our current two party catastrophe would at least bring something of value to the discussion.

BTW, you didn't address my question as to whether or not you feel our current two party system is nuts. I'll relist some, not nearly close to all of these failures and you can feel free to disagree and explain why if you like.

Redistribution of wealth, restriction to free trade and an open market, government intervention in restriction of how we allocate our retirement through forced taxation aka theft, failing public schooling and housing as directed with our tax dollars(taxation without representation if you will), welfare systems which are not only overly complicated but do nothing but continue to impoverish those that they are meant to benefit, creation of numerous agencies, departments and other bureaucracies which are not only a waste of taxpayer(our money) but are served as a means to employ people that are major contributors to elected officials as paybacks, mismanagement of every taxpayer funded government program, etc.
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  #22  
Old 01-12-17, 04:01 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Possessed doing his part to help support my position here
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  #23  
Old 01-12-17, 04:08 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
I tend to put Libertarians in the same league as Scientologists and big foot hunters.
I tend to put elected Democrats and Republicans in the same league as thieves, liars and phonies and their followers as sheep blindly following party ideology .
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  #24  
Old 01-12-17, 04:12 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Possessed doing his part to help support my position here

What part of the platform do you disagree with?

As usual, a question turns into a discussion on anything but the original question, followed by the inevitable minimizing of others ideas by name calling.

I have pointed out several, but not even close to all of the problems caused by our current two party system.

How can government possibly get any worse?
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  #25  
Old 01-12-17, 04:40 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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The subject is the LP, so all of this is perfectly valid discussion.

The two party system is a problem but the LP has not presented itself as a reasonable option for the reasons I've given.

The platform is too anarchist for me. I don't have time right now to run through it all but I guarantee if you read it now you'll see bits in there about people scrapping their government entirely. Only the most radical (anarchists and AnCaps) in the Libertarian sphere think that way. The party should not be pandering to them.
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  #26  
Old 01-12-17, 04:47 PM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
The subject is the LP, so all of this is perfectly valid discussion.

The two party system is a problem but the LP has not presented itself as a reasonable option for the reasons I've given.

The platform is too anarchist for me. I don't have time right now to run through it all but I guarantee if you read it now you'll see bits in there about people scrapping their government entirely. Only the most radical (anarchists and AnCaps) in the Libertarian sphere think that way. The party should not be pandering to them.
When you do have time, I would be interested to read your specific issues with the platform as it is laid out.
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  #27  
Old 01-12-17, 08:33 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
Through Libertarian Party ideals.

If there are any aspects of this platform you disagree with, please explain.

https://www.lp.org/platform/
Absolutely, when would you like to have a go on the health care part of the platform?
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  #28  
Old 01-12-17, 08:33 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
I tend to put elected Democrats and Republicans in the same league as thieves, liars and phonies and their followers as sheep blindly following party ideology .
Nah. Libertarians are all Saints. Oh wait.. we'll never know cause they're too crazy to get elcted.
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  #29  
Old 01-13-17, 08:24 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by gobluetom View Post
When you do have time, I would be interested to read your specific issues with the platform as it is laid out.
When you have time, please expound on this one a bit - "Our infrastructure would greatly benefit from the ideals of the Libertarian Party."
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  #30  
Old 01-16-17, 08:06 AM
gobluetom gobluetom is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
Absolutely, when would you like to have a go on the health care part of the platform?
I agree with it.

Administering health care is none of the government's business.

I believe all of the welfare programs should be eliminated and those living below the welfare line should not be taxed and given a credit to spend how they want(food, health care, housing, clothing etc.) Government housing, food stamps, etc. are a few examples of to put it nicely, of very poorly run and inefficient government programs.

I guess the second part is not in line with the Libertarian platform, but like I said previously, if they were to gain any power, the Libertarian Party would have to make some adjustments(concessions).
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