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  #61  
Old 01-05-17, 09:41 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Not really, those that couldn't qualify academically to begin an undergraduate program can usually get in on some remedial program that will attempt to redeem their lack of educational readiness.
Golly, next thing you know, it will be taking people 5 years to get 4 year degrees.
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  #62  
Old 01-06-17, 08:11 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Not really, those that couldn't qualify academically to begin an undergraduate program can usually get in on some remedial program that will attempt to redeem their lack of educational readiness.
To a branch sure.
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  #63  
Old 01-06-17, 08:12 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Golly, next thing you know, it will be taking people 5 years to get 4 year degrees.
That's already a thing. Engineering, business, etc. because of co-ops.
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  #64  
Old 01-06-17, 09:37 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Well sure. But it's not like kids are going to get C's through high school, score a 900 on the SAT, 19 on the ACT and then get accepted into Ithaca, Syracuse, Vassar, NYU, etc. Even if they go to a branch that will still show up when applying for jobs.
.

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You're a smart guy. Figure it out.
indeed
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  #65  
Old 01-06-17, 09:39 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
That's already a thing. Engineering, business, etc. because of co-ops.
chase your own tail
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  #66  
Old 01-06-17, 09:45 AM
HHW96 HHW96 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Eh. I can sympathize, I was a late bloomer. Coasted through HS and first 2 years of college. Then finally started getting sh*t done the final 2.5 years. But I also paid for my college myself. I agree, if it's gonna be free ya gotta have the grades.
Same here man. Looking back on it, I would kick my own butt if the state would have paid for my lousy initial effort.
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  #67  
Old 01-06-17, 11:30 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
chase your own tail
Sorry you said something in jest when it's a real thing that obviously benefits college students.
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  #68  
Old 01-06-17, 11:31 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
.



indeed
Is that you, BJF? Says something dumb, called on it, can't defend the position and then throws the laughing emoji. Thought you were better than that.
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  #69  
Old 01-06-17, 01:18 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
Is that you, BJF? Says something dumb, called on it, can't defend the position and then throws the laughing emoji. Thought you were better than that.
Better than you, evidently. You appear to be so stupid that you can't imagine institutions of "higher learning" lowering standards to take advantage of another government program. (you get 2 emojis for the price of one, you're so dumb)


Many individuals who won't avail themselves of something that requires a partial investment will jump all over a full ride. Once cries of equal access and lawsuits come into play, dummying down will be a simple business decision with an easy excuse. Some will even tout noble intentions.

You aren't much as a student of human nature, are you ?
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  #70  
Old 01-06-17, 01:29 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Better than you, evidently. You appear to be so stupid that you can't imagine institutions of "higher learning" lowering standards to take advantage of another government program. (you get 2 emojis for the price of one, you're so dumb)


Many individuals who won't avail themselves of something that requires a partial investment will jump all over a full ride. Once cries of equal access and lawsuits come into play, dummying down will be a simple business decision with an easy excuse. Some will even tout noble intentions.

You aren't much as a student of human nature, are you ?
You realize this is already the current set up, right? Colleges could let in the straight C student who got a 900 SAT and 19 ACT with loans. They aren't really paying with their own money. 18 year olds rarely consider the consequences of loans, as evidence by the insane number of grads/dropouts who cannot make their payments. Colleges get paid, doesn't matter if the student can make the payments later in life. And yet, here we are, with colleges having admittance standards. Sorry you're too dumb to understand this.
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  #71  
Old 01-06-17, 02:58 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
You realize this is already the current set up, right? Colleges could let in the straight C student who got a 900 SAT and 19 ACT with loans. They aren't really paying with their own money. 18 year olds rarely consider the consequences of loans, as evidence by the insane number of grads/dropouts who cannot make their payments. Colleges get paid, doesn't matter if the student can make the payments later in life. And yet, here we are, with colleges having admittance standards. Sorry you're too dumb to understand this.
Don't see a real difference in an 18 year old middle of the road HS student having to take out loans to go to college or the state taking money from Taxpayers to allow the same thing...... except in one case there is a consequence for the student for their poor HS record (they have to pay back the loans OR screw up their credit if they don't).

Admittance standards are extremely flexible for a college if the prospective student has the funds to go to college (cash or loan). If the state is paying the bill I would expect to see even more flexibility in the pursuit of dollars.
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  #72  
Old 01-06-17, 02:59 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Golly, next thing you know, it will be taking people 5 years to get 4 year degrees.
or 6 or 7 if you include the mandatory co-op time.......
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  #73  
Old 01-06-17, 03:29 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Don't see a real difference in an 18 year old middle of the road HS student having to take out loans to go to college or the state taking money from Taxpayers to allow the same thing...... except in one case there is a consequence for the student for their poor HS record (they have to pay back the loans OR screw up their credit if they don't).

Admittance standards are extremely flexible for a college if the prospective student has the funds to go to college (cash or loan). If the state is paying the bill I would expect to see even more flexibility in the pursuit of dollars.
Have you not paid attention to the loan situation right now? HS students clearly aren't worried/concerned/thinking about the future consequences.
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  #74  
Old 01-06-17, 03:30 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by HHW96 View Post
Same here man. Looking back on it, I would kick my own butt if the state would have paid for my lousy initial effort.
+1 man
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  #75  
Old 01-06-17, 04:40 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
Don't see a real difference in an 18 year old middle of the road HS student having to take out loans to go to college or the state taking money from Taxpayers to allow the same thing...... except in one case there is a consequence for the student for their poor HS record (they have to pay back the loans OR screw up their credit if they don't).

Admittance standards are extremely flexible for a college if the prospective student has the funds to go to college (cash or loan). If the state is paying the bill I would expect to see even more flexibility in the pursuit of dollars.
It's pretty obvious that some would.

I'm experiencing a real Lahey backlash today. It's pretty funny to me. I can only guess why, but I bet zeeman will be laughing if he follows it along
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  #76  
Old 01-06-17, 04:52 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
It's pretty obvious that some would.

I'm experiencing a real Lahey backlash today. It's pretty funny to me. I can only guess why, but I bet zeeman will be laughing if he follows it along
Because you're making dumb posts?
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  #77  
Old 01-07-17, 09:07 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
because you're making dumb posts?
+1
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  #78  
Old 01-07-17, 09:13 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
+1
Two salty b1tches^ with a shared nemesis. How cute.
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  #79  
Old 01-07-17, 10:11 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Nemesis? You're either delusional or you don't know what that word means. Then again it's probably both.
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  #80  
Old 01-07-17, 11:12 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Better than you, evidently. You appear to be so stupid that you can't imagine institutions of "higher learning" lowering standards to take advantage of another government program. (you get 2 emojis for the price of one, you're so dumb)
The institutions do not set the admittance standards. Maybe you didn't read the original well, didn't know what you were reading or the conversation has headed off into a different direction but the plan is for "state (NY) universities and colleges."

Admittance standards for state institutions is set by a centralized authority, a "State Board of Trustees," not the institutions themselves.

So, since my premise is that they're using this to keep those institutions viable, they may already not operating at efficient populations and that the problem isn't finding domestic students to meet the standards but finding in-state students that can meet the costs. Otherwise, they'd have just lowered the standards to increase the populations.

Private schools are the ones that would be more likely to lower standards but this money isn't geared towards them. The state institutions generally already have some of their colleges designated "open enrollment," usually those best situated to serve the urban and mixed demographic commuter students. This describes one more possible benefit of such a program. A student of potential that chose a more local institution because they weren't able to get the funding to enroll at a higher performing state institution or one more focused on their goals, would now have that opportunity.

And ultimately, it is corporate NY that wants this program. Back in the day, you went to college to prove you were "smart," then the corporation trained you with what they need you to know. But that dug into the bottom line. Beginning in the 70s (my estimation) is when they began downsizing that function and pawning it off to the tax payer instead of the consumer. It's a win-win for them, just like bartering for tax credits.

Quote:
Lahey: Probably should have started off with community colleges only and gone from there
I agree with maybe one better, those institutions designated more "open enrollment." That might draw higher performing students from other communities to those institutions, making them viable for out-of-state and foreign students ($$$), bringing research into those colleges.... until they're not "community" colleges but viable Universities with a vocational bent. I'm not aware of a lot of vocational/research mix type universities but the ones I do know (Kettering- the former GM Institute, U of NW Ohio...) have extremely good reputations. It's one thing to teach welding, construction, auto maintenance.... and it's another to research better methods and techniques. Seems like that would be a pretty interesting place to go to school.
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  #81  
Old 01-07-17, 12:02 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
And ultimately, it is corporate NY that wants this program. Back in the day, you went to college to prove you were "smart," then the corporation trained you with what they need you to know. But that dug into the bottom line. Beginning in the 70s (my estimation) is when they began downsizing that function and pawning it off to the tax payer instead of the consumer. It's a win-win for them, just like bartering for tax credits.
That might be true for marketing and management positions but in R&D the "corporations" expect the universities to educate their BA/BS students in the basics and their MS/PhD students in the advanced concepts & techniques of R&D.

Again, without controlling for the type of majors that the public will be underwriting this will NOT help the corporations at all. They are not looking for gender studies majors.
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  #82  
Old 01-07-17, 01:26 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
That might be true for marketing and management positions but in R&D the "corporations" expect the universities to educate their BA/BS students in the basics and their MS/PhD students in the advanced concepts & techniques of R&D.
Which... would make it true in "R&D." Not sure what point you were trying to make or why you used the word "but."

My statement was correct. There's been a considerable shift of corporate money towards funding their R&D at the universities. They are funding the Universities to do their research for them. It's not just a "training ground" as you seem to imply.

Even in the early 80s, half the research time in the lab, which I studied, was corporate funded but it provided much more than half the lab's funding. In the fairly recent years before that, research was either government or grant funded. My first public position, the group I hired into was 30PhD, 30 Masters and two Bach. (I was one of those) and it wasn't even the "R&D." Over the decade, both of those were shrunk considerably.

The line between corporate and University research has become a very wide blur. Corporations are not just funding research and joint research, they're building joint facilities. Look near any major technologically based research university and you're going to find something you didn't find in the 70s and 80s, a research "park" with corporate names all over it.
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  #83  
Old 01-07-17, 02:33 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
The institutions do not set the admittance standards. Maybe you didn't read the original well, didn't know what you were reading or the conversation has headed off into a different direction but the plan is for "state (NY) universities and colleges."

Admittance standards for state institutions is set by a centralized authority, a "State Board of Trustees," not the institutions themselves.

So, since my premise is that they're using this to keep those institutions viable, they may already not operating at efficient populations and that the problem isn't finding domestic students to meet the standards but finding in-state students that can meet the costs. Otherwise, they'd have just lowered the standards to increase the populations.
.......

And ultimately, it is corporate NY that wants this program. Back in the day, you went to college to prove you were "smart," then the corporation trained you with what they need you to know. But that dug into the bottom line. Beginning in the 70s (my estimation) is when they began downsizing that function and pawning it off to the tax payer instead of the consumer. It's a win-win for them, just like bartering for tax credits.......
Do all state schools have the same standards for all programs ? No. Mandated minimums, maybe, but practically, no. Is it your position that state boards set standards independent of the opinions of the schools that they govern ? Demand at certain places for certain programs effectively raises standards by a limited supply. When demand artificially increases because of a removal of monetary obligations on the part of students, there will be pressure to lower standards and increase supply, for various reasons. It doesn't make a huge difference whose name is on it. Like I said earlier, "free" means cries for equal access will follow. If applicants increase, revenue streams will be "harvested". Look at OSU's Newark campus. How did all those Somalis end up concentrated there ? Who pays ? Did they test out higher than all the other applicants that were denied admission ?

Given the rapid inflation of tuition relative to nearly everything else in our economy, and that the increase directly corresponds to the proliferation of easy loans, (even though greater numbers of unemployed grads are taking longer to become officially superfluous) it seems hard to deny that this "free to < $125k" is going to result in either a "dummying down" or added programs to grab cash.

The reason they want in-state students is that they have to compete on a near-equal cost comparison for out of state students. Nothing better than doubling the size of an easy electronic funds transfer from a single source.
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  #84  
Old 01-07-17, 03:07 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Nemesis? You're either delusional or you don't know what that word means. Then again it's probably both.
So salty
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  #85  
Old 01-07-17, 03:40 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Do all state schools have the same standards for all programs ? No. .
Which would be exactly what I posted. Everything else you wrote was repeat guised as somehow disputing what I posted.

So I'm not sure your beef with that other poster, but he's right in that you're wrong. No individual state institution has control over this, they're not going to individually lower their standards in order to grab this money. The state board of trustees (regents) will dictate that. To correctly make your argument, you would state that the Board of Trustees would lower the standards in order to grab the money. But I'd argue against that too, because as I posted, I believe this had more to do with the state not being able to meet capacity due to (as you posted) the rising cost. Not because of lack of capable potential students.


Look here;
https://www.ohiohighered.org/trustees


Note what ISN'T stated as a responsibility of the BOTs of the individual universities. Standards. See that word "advice?" Guess what that's used for?
Harder to find but there is a search function, you can find information about "uniform" standards.



The state board of trustees dictate, very literally, the standards based upon state needs. Money rules, larger state institutions can yes, politically influence the roost but then, they wouldn't need to be in position to lower standards. If you look, you know you'll see that much like OSU (main campus), the entrance standards for those particular state flag-ship schools are rising be it Ohio or anywhere. They're not even part of your unfounded concern. Locally in Ohio this has caused problems because State BOT (Regents) has placed the standards LOWER than desired by the municipal institutions, not higher. The reasons behind that, are something that can be debated but if one of the branches or municipals unilaterally attempted to change their entrance standards, they risk their portion of state money and their STATE appointed board membership.

I already answered your question on the "Somali's," you just have to understand what you're reading, and you don't. You're not educated on this subject but typically, you'll call out all those that supply a truth that doesn't conform to the reality you'd prefer.

Last edited by eastisbest; 01-07-17 at 04:12 PM.
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  #86  
Old 01-07-17, 04:13 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Which would be exactly what I posted. Everything else you wrote was repeat guised as somehow disputing what I posted.

So I'm not sure your beef with that other poster, but he's right in that you're wrong. No individual state institution has control over this, they're not going to individually lower their standards in order to grab this money. The state board of trustees (regents) will dictate that. To correctly make your argument, you would state that the Board of Trustees would lower the standards in order to grab the money. But I'd argue against that too, because as I posted, I believe this had more to do with the state not being able to meet capacity due to (as you posted) the rising cost. Not because of lack of capable potential students.


Look here; Note what ISN'T stated as a responsibility of the BOTs of the individual universities. Standards.
https://www.ohiohighered.org/trustees


See that word "advice?" Guess what that's used for?

The state board of trustees dictate, very literally, the standards based upon state needs. Money rules, larger state institutions can yes, politically influence the roost but then, they wouldn't need to be in position to lower standards. If you look, you know you'll see that much like OSU (main campus), the entrance standards for those particular schools are rising. They're not even part of your unfounded concern. Locally in Ohio this has caused problems because State BOT (Regents) has placed the standards LOWER than desired by the municipal institutions, not higher. The reasons behind that, are something that can be debated.

I already answered your question on the "Somali's," you just have to understand what you're reading, and you don't. You're not educated on this subject but typically, you'll call out all those that supply a truth that doesn't conform to the reality you'd prefer.

So, why then did you quote my response to someone else, and seamlessly launch all that in your post ? Do you dispute my assertion that there will be a rush among universities to grab as much state cash as possible when a full payment of tuition comes into play, and that they will be willing to lower standards to do it ? You really misrepresent a post when you chop it all up. Hard to figure why you would so habitually do that when it actually takes more effort than simply clicking a quote button....


Let's start over. The underlined is what you quoted. It was stated to FU Kemp, AS A PART of, not APART from what is bolded. It does not stand alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Better than you, evidently. You appear to be so stupid that you can't imagine institutions of "higher learning" lowering standards to take advantage of another government program. (you get 2 emojis for the price of one, you're so dumb)


Many individuals who won't avail themselves of something that requires a partial investment will jump all over a full ride. Once cries of equal access and lawsuits come into play, dummying down will be a simple business decision with an easy excuse. Some will even tout noble intentions.

You aren't much as a student of human nature, are you ?
Was all that you posted related to the mechanics of setting standards ?
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  #87  
Old 01-07-17, 05:39 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
So, why then did you quote my response to someone else, and seamlessly launch all that in your post ? Do you dispute my assertion that there will be a rush among universities to grab as much state cash as possible when a full payment of tuition comes into play, and that they will be willing to lower standards to do it ? You really misrepresent a post when you chop it all up. Hard to figure why you would so habitually do that when it actually takes more effort than simply clicking a quote button....


Let's start over. The underlined is what you quoted. It was stated to FU Kemp, AS A PART of, not APART from what is bolded. It does not stand alone.



Was all that you posted related to the mechanics of setting standards ?

I posted only to correct your assertion that the universities could act as individuals, figuring you (as I posted) either didn't read that part that stated this applies only to "state" universities or didn't understand its relevance. It's a fact pertinent to the overall effect of a program such as this. If you have that fact wrong, you are less likely to come to a correct conclusion. Now that you (I presume) have that fact correct, what conclusion you come to with it is up to you.
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  #88  
Old 01-07-17, 06:19 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Which... would make it true in "R&D." Not sure what point you were trying to make or why you used the word "but."

My statement was correct. There's been a considerable shift of corporate money towards funding their R&D at the universities. They are funding the Universities to do their research for them. It's not just a "training ground" as you seem to imply.

Even in the early 80s, half the research time in the lab, which I studied, was corporate funded but it provided much more than half the lab's funding. In the fairly recent years before that, research was either government or grant funded. My first public position, the group I hired into was 30PhD, 30 Masters and two Bach. (I was one of those) and it wasn't even the "R&D." Over the decade, both of those were shrunk considerably.

The line between corporate and University research has become a very wide blur. Corporations are not just funding research and joint research, they're building joint facilities. Look near any major technologically based research university and you're going to find something you didn't find in the 70s and 80s, a research "park" with corporate names all over it.
My point was that at least with the "sciences" & "engineering" degrees corporations expect a lot more from a persons college education than proof that they are "smart" as you put it.

Corporate funding of University research has been common from at least the 1970's. Also, in my experience universities sought out industry for funding in response to their own budget cuts. In fact at first University research programs struggled with what to charge Corporate America initially assigning a 50% surcharge on a grant to cover "overhead". That meant if you were providing $100,000 in funding you had to add $50,000 for the "overhead". As expected those extra charges quickly disappeared as Industry told the universities they were nuts to charge that much.

The other phenomena I saw and participated in was the growth within University science departments of "centers of excellence". These centers usually were unique concentrations of scientific & engineering expertise that a University offered (things like "the Center for Applied Surface Science"). We participated in several of these centers, often with matching State & Federal funding. The results were mixed as some centers offered outstanding value and scientific capabilities while others fell flat.

The research parks you refer to are largely the result of faculty/graduate entrepreneurs setting up applied research centers in close proximity (or even on campus) of top research universities. It allows for a more practical focus of the research and a more effective partnership between the university, the science entrepreneurs & Industry. My experience was that these set-ups worked best for us.

Bottom line though is all of the above as well as the stuff you referred to in your post involving R&D are happening as we speak. They won't benefit from the State massively subsidizing tuition. Gender studies students are not participating in these R&D centers and those students who major in the sciences or engineering and do participate rarely struggle to pay off their student loans as they usually get decent jobs when they graduate.
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  #89  
Old 01-09-17, 08:40 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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SWMCinci is on a distinguished road
We already have a multi-trillion dollar open enrollment education program available to everyone, it's called K-12 education. I do accept the belief that it is not enough to fully prepare someone for the rest of their lives, that they need a finishing school that picks up from there and prepares them for a career. That last step can be the military, college, trade school, or OJT training. There are a lot of options and politicians shouldn't pick the options. As has been demonstrated over time, they almost always pick the most expensive and wasteful way to do things.

If someone doesn't avail themselves to the full possibilities of the current way to get ready for life through one free program, why does the governor think that 4 MORE years of wasteful spending will change that?
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Old 01-09-17, 08:44 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
Cooling Off
 
Join Date: 10-09-16
Location: Sunnyvale
Posts: 2,338
Jim Lahey can only hope to improve
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Nemesis? You're either delusional or you don't know what that word means. Then again it's probably both.
Someone thinks highly of themselves.
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