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  #61  
Old 01-17-17, 10:26 AM
Lucksman Lucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachYing View Post
I am on the state board however some guys don't realize the state coaches assoc. don't make these decisions the OHSAA does. 2 years in a row I have been blamed for teams not getting what they have wanted???? Again the Coaches Assoc has no say over Sectionals, Districts or the State duals. Sorry and I have no hard feeling OU Bobcat I understand your frustration. You need to look at all divisions. Last year we drove to Galion Northmor on a Wednesday night 100 miles, and Canton 2 years ago 100 miles. It is what it is. However I must say that is crazy and not even reasonable that a team should have to travel 180 miles one way 360 on a School night come on on something has to give. Gallia Academy should be in Region 15.
Coaches are funny, they complain about where they go to Sectional/District in one breath, then complain about how far they have to travel in another. Seems to be a lot of complaints about TRAVEL. If you don't have schools in your area you have to travel. Coaches need to make up their mind, do you want Seeded match ups to be fair, or is travel more important?
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  #62  
Old 01-17-17, 10:50 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
Best idea I have heard so far.
I also wouldn't mind qualifying by winning your sectional. I'd take that over the current 2 night qualification.

To go with the other statement he made "I think the only reason that people are stating they like the old way better is because the Coaches Association wrestled it out for true finishes"

The last few years, the 3-6 and 4-5 match ups have been competitive. 1-8/2-7's have been blowouts. If you are that 7-8 team, even 6th sometimes, it isn't worth the travel/expense to go to Columbus and watch your team have zero chance to win and only get to wrestle 1 match.

I don't think your on the fence fan or even more importantly... your average student is going to take that trip. They are much more likely to take that trip if the team wrestles at least twice and has a chance to wrestle a competitive match. Wrestling needs that to at the very least, maintain it's popularity.
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  #63  
Old 01-17-17, 11:57 AM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
Best idea I have heard so far.
...even though this isn't apples to apples as one stud in a tournament can score 30+ team points while a bad kid scores 0. In a dual, the difference is only 6 points -- and sectionals don't allow you to juggle a line-up.

Me personally, I'm good with how it is now. I love love love dual meets. I think they have ability to grow sport far more than individual tournaments. The average person in our town couldn't care less about watching (fill in name of Ohio superstar not from that town) because they don't know them -- but they love watching kids from their own town compete.

just my $0.02 with may not be worth that much.
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  #64  
Old 01-17-17, 11:59 AM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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So if we could move entire regional dual tournament to one Saturday, would that be better? I'd be good with that idea.
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  #65  
Old 01-17-17, 12:09 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
...even though this isn't apples to apples as one stud in a tournament can score 30+ team points while a bad kid scores 0. In a dual, the difference is only 6 points -- and sectionals don't allow you to juggle a line-up.

Me personally, I'm good with how it is now. I love love love dual meets. I think they have ability to grow sport far more than individual tournaments. The average person in our town couldn't care less about watching (fill in name of Ohio superstar not from that town) because they don't know them -- but they love watching kids from their own town compete.

just my $0.02 with may not be worth that much.
I totally agree that it is not apples to apples and imperfect BUT...most likely a sectional winner is going to have good roster balance AND it gets rid of week night travel for uncompetitive duals and all the associated conflicts. Pick your poison.
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  #66  
Old 01-17-17, 12:38 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
So if we could move entire regional dual tournament to one Saturday, would that be better? I'd be good with that idea.
I do. I really think that would be best. Attendance could be an issue because of the extended time needed to run it, but if the facility is large enough, it could be done in 4-5 hours and I think those attending the early round are those attending no matter the case. I could be wrong though. Without data, I don't think many fringe fans are attending these duals unless there are competitive matches taking place.
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  #67  
Old 01-17-17, 12:39 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
So if we could move entire regional dual tournament to one Saturday, would that be better? I'd be good with that idea.
I like that. The teams that travel long distances could get a minimum of 2-3 matches even losing early if done properly.


Coach Root
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  #68  
Old 01-17-17, 12:41 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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lol... not sure our yappi rants are going to make much difference. But we can dream...


Coach Root
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  #69  
Old 01-17-17, 12:47 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
lol... not sure our yappi rants are going to make much difference. But we can dream...


Coach Root
You never know. It's known that some people that could help direct change occasionally check in on these boards.
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  #70  
Old 01-17-17, 12:48 PM
roughedge roughedge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
So if we could move entire regional dual tournament to one Saturday, would that be better? I'd be good with that idea.
Think that would be a great idea. Coaches don't have to worry about all the mid week weigh ins. Your only doing one day of travel for most teams.
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  #71  
Old 01-17-17, 02:57 PM
CoachHoon CoachHoon is offline
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[QUOTE=Coach Root;6678334]lol... not sure our yappi rants are going to make much difference. But we can dream...


Correct, so please come to the district board meetings (NEDAB.ORG) to help make some changes. Just email them to get on the agenda.
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  #72  
Old 01-17-17, 02:59 PM
CoachHoon CoachHoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucksman View Post
Coaches are funny, they complain about where they go to Sectional/District in one breath, then complain about how far they have to travel in another. Seems to be a lot of complaints about TRAVEL. If you don't have schools in your area you have to travel. Coaches need to make up their mind, do you want Seeded match ups to be fair, or is travel more important?
I would agree that having the teams evenly seeded and the strength distributed would be the #1 priority. I can understand why traveling, during the week, is difficult, but is this for the kids or for the coaches?
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  #73  
Old 01-17-17, 08:10 PM
93 red ls 93 red ls is offline
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I really could care less. Hell we wrestle NCH who is literally 3 miles from our place. We have to travel to Bethel Tate ( 1 1/2 bus ride) to do that and the Winner has BT. Not that concerned, our kids are pumped just at the opportunity!

and to add to what people said about coaches voting "correctly" what is the "correct" way to vote? we had 3 schools out of the 9 in our region not even enter ANY bio info? I mean 1-2 was pretty easy after that 3-5 was throwing darts , 6-8 same
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  #74  
Old 01-17-17, 09:39 PM
oubobcat1991 oubobcat1991 is offline
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I do not assign blame on the SE Coaches Association?

I guess the obvious bias is easy to spot for the ones who continually get the short end. New Lexington complained the previous two years about getting the 8th seed in the final. It looks like OHSAA fixed that situation.

I love the idea of the duals. I think it could be very good for the sport. Yes, you have to beat someone. Get it.
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  #75  
Old 01-17-17, 10:02 PM
ECW2009 ECW2009 is offline
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I enjoy the state duals and understand many of the concerns. I also enjoy duals in general. I know this could be a new thread. But I do not see state duals helping grow the sport when most of the teams are traveling to compete. I feel if we really want to increase the participation in the sport, the state needs to increase the number the number of duals per year from 4 to something little more. Keep the 20 points system. I am not sure what the magic dual number should be. But I feel it could draw more kids if we had less tournaments and more duals. I understand the importance of tournaments as well. However, the data is showing that numbers have been decreasing. The Olympic committee made some changes to keep the sport going. Maybe it is time coaches association and OHSAA make some changes as well to help increase participation. A small majority of wrestlers make it to State. So we have to find ways to keep average kids involved and gets to kids involved also.
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  #76  
Old 01-17-17, 10:58 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Some other state structures ...

MINNESOTA
-admittedly is a smaller state in terms of number of schools per division
-currently they run the team state qualifier two weekends before the state tournament. The same teams as in your individual bracket qualifier are in your team state qualifier (this year AV and Shakopee are in the same qualifier for both, which is obviously going to be unpleasant; individual state is 8x2 and on the team side one of them won't be there)
-the individual state qualifier is the following weekend
-the state tournament has the team event on Thursday and individual bracket on Friday and Saturday. Team state gets seeded among the eight teams that qualify, and I think there's an umbrella (i.e. not one & done)

ILLINOIS
-the individual bracket tournament is setup pretty much like ours. you have four regionals (our sectionals) feeding to four sectionals (our districts) that qualify for the state tournament
-from those 16 first-layer tournaments, the champion at each first-layer tournament qualifies for the team state playoffs
-the first round of the team state playoffs, which takes it from 16 to 8 happens the Tuesday after the individual bracket state tournament; the draw for which regional champions face each other is pre-determined
-the Saturday after the state tournament is the team state tournament, quarterfinal matches are pre-determined. Quarterfinal losers are done, semifinal losers wrestle for third
**year-to-year you have some lopsided stuff in terms of a regional or two having a pair of very strong teams, and then exacerbated by the fact they draw each other in the play-in or quarterfinal

MICHIGAN
-the qualification rounds for team state are done in the middle of the week preceding the district and regional tournaments. In Michigan, there are four regions qualifying four kids each on the individual side, while there are eight regions that qualify a team each on the dual meet side
-I am not sure about the intricacies of the preliminary rounds
-the team state tournament is the weekend between the individual regional and individual state tournaments, it is also single elimination

NEW JERSEY
-the team state series is done the week before the individual series begins
-qualification for the right to participate in team state is based on a power point structure based on dual meet success (in all fairness, dual meet are much more emphasized in NJ than they are here; we're much more individual bracket tournament focused)
-there are five public school groups that feature four sections each, while the two non-public groups feature two sections.
-based on the power points, six teams qualify per section; the top two seeds have a bye on Monday, the two winners of Monday dual meets wrestle those with a bye on Wednesday, Wednesday's winners wrestle in the section final on Friday
-the state final four is held on Sunday (final two for non-public), obviously no consolation final is held

PENNSYLVANIA
-the individual bracket state series last for four weeks (some areas have three layers to qualify for state, while others have two, and from those that have two they either go weeks 1 & 2 or weeks 2 & 3)
-the team state playoffs are held the week before; the PIAA has a bracket set up with allocations per geographic district based on # of schools and merit
-four pre-determined teams have a bye to the quarters (in 3A that's the champs in I, III, VII, and XI), another four pre-determined teams have a bye into the second round, while eight teams will make it to the state event (I think three of those are direct, while five are via "play-in"); once in the state event, it's full double-elimination with a championship and consolation final (so the event is Thursday through Saturday)
-play-in matches are held on Monday night between certain placements (i.e. XI-2 may draw III-4)
-the week prior to the team state playoffs, each district holds its playoff using whatever method they use to qualify teams (conference standing, power points, etc)
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  #77  
Old 01-18-17, 02:34 AM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECW2009 View Post
I enjoy the state duals and understand many of the concerns. I also enjoy duals in general. I know this could be a new thread. But I do not see state duals helping grow the sport when most of the teams are traveling to compete. I feel if we really want to increase the participation in the sport, the state needs to increase the number the number of duals per year from 4 to something little more. Keep the 20 points system. I am not sure what the magic dual number should be. But I feel it could draw more kids if we had less tournaments and more duals. I understand the importance of tournaments as well. However, the data is showing that numbers have been decreasing. The Olympic committee made some changes to keep the sport going. Maybe it is time coaches association and OHSAA make some changes as well to help increase participation. A small majority of wrestlers make it to State. So we have to find ways to keep average kids involved and gets to kids involved also.
Then schedule that way! SMCC set the bar long ago with 50-60+ matches. Many other teams have adopted that. We have had 25+ duals with a ceiling of 35+. Its on your scheduling. There are plenty of dual tournaments. We average 50+ win/matches coming into district/State
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  #78  
Old 01-18-17, 08:06 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by 1_beast View Post
Then schedule that way! SMCC set the bar long ago with 50-60+ matches. Many other teams have adopted that. We have had 25+ duals with a ceiling of 35+. Its on your scheduling. There are plenty of dual tournaments. We average 50+ win/matches coming into district/State
I think he means 1 match and go home duals. Not 10 on a weekend. I agree with him on the state duals part as well. It isn't helping like we had hoped. I'd like the state to come out and say something along the lines the of schools needing 2 points from straight duals (4 matches) and 2 more points come from duals or tri's. Then it is on the schools to do their part and schedule some competitive match ups.

I'm just a dreamer though.
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  #79  
Old 01-18-17, 09:13 AM
Donkability Donkability is offline
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so is there any way to adjust the duals to make them better? or are they going to continue on as it is and just have a yappi thread every year pointing out all its pros and cons. mostly cons?
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  #80  
Old 01-18-17, 09:32 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Originally Posted by Donkability View Post
are they going to continue on as it is and just have a yappi thread every year pointing out all its pros and cons. mostly cons?
I think it's probably going to be this one.

The reality is that until it becomes a financial burden or until a collective group brings an issue to light, we'll continue down the path we are on. You can always do something better, but the reality is that there will always be someone unhappy with the regions or the format.

Like I said earlier, I love the state duals. I don't think it's perfect, but it's a great concept. I do think they should wrestle out the placement matches (i.e. 3rd, 5th, 7th). I think that if you're going to grow the sport, you need to give fans a chance to watch their team compete... a D2 8 seed wrestling Graham has little reason to come and watch. As for the lopsidedness of the brackets, I'm not a fan of way they setup the subregions. I think you seed the entire region and the top two qualify - 16 total teams. I realize that oftentimes the North has a stronger pressence, but if we are looking at what's good for wrestling, then we need to build the sport accross the state. Reseed the finals and strap up. You either need a bigger venue or you need to host the divisions separate weeks. Will this please everyone? Nope.


Coach Root
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  #81  
Old 01-18-17, 09:32 AM
jopfer jopfer is offline
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This concept (created by Jude Roth) has been discussed with Mr Rugg and Mr Brooks. It has also been shared with a former wrestling coaches association president.

Obviously, the logistic details would need to be hammered out. The current system does not encourage duals because there is not a value associated with it.

The idea is for a revision to the existing Dual Team Tournament to increase interest in regular season dual meets.

The concept is to rank teams for the State Dual Team Tournament by collecting their W/L results of their regular season dual matches. This would be similar to the Football computer points (the platform already exists). Before the season the teams would schedule duals/tris/quads and designate a set # of matches to count towards their computer points. The first round of the current state duals system would be eliminated. This could eliminate the first round where there are lopsided duals and teams opt out. It also has the highest expenses for the state. The top 4 or 8 teams (by computer points) in a region would then qualify for the state dual, or current 2nd week of state duals.

The current football computer point system creates some excitement week to week, which is relatable to the casual fan.
This obviously isn't the end all to create excitement for duals but its at least an attempt to create some excitement for the team events.

Feel free to email jaredopfer@gmail.com to discuss the details or to tell me why this wouldn't be a good idea.
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  #82  
Old 01-18-17, 11:26 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Looking at the state dual brackets, will the A side or the B side be hosting the 2nd round this year?
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  #83  
Old 01-18-17, 11:32 AM
#Hashtag #Hashtag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jopfer View Post
This concept (created by Jude Roth) has been discussed with Mr Rugg and Mr Brooks. It has also been shared with a former wrestling coaches association president.

Obviously, the logistic details would need to be hammered out. The current system does not encourage duals because there is not a value associated with it.

The idea is for a revision to the existing Dual Team Tournament to increase interest in regular season dual meets.

The concept is to rank teams for the State Dual Team Tournament by collecting their W/L results of their regular season dual matches. This would be similar to the Football computer points (the platform already exists). Before the season the teams would schedule duals/tris/quads and designate a set # of matches to count towards their computer points. The first round of the current state duals system would be eliminated. This could eliminate the first round where there are lopsided duals and teams opt out. It also has the highest expenses for the state. The top 4 or 8 teams (by computer points) in a region would then qualify for the state dual, or current 2nd week of state duals.

The current football computer point system creates some excitement week to week, which is relatable to the casual fan.
This obviously isn't the end all to create excitement for duals but its at least an attempt to create some excitement for the team events.

Feel free to email jaredopfer@gmail.com to discuss the details or to tell me why this wouldn't be a good idea.


Just to play devil's advocate ---- Wouldn't it be easier to just accept the top 4 teams from each sub-region per coaches vote?

Region 8 for example ---
Instead of having 19 teams competing over the course of 2 weeks. Take top 4 from each sub-region and have it at 1 gym on 4 mats.

Opening round --
8A - Lak. East vs Moeller
8A - Lak. West vs Loveland
8B - Elder vs Harrison
8B - LaSalle vs Fairfield

3 wins to win your region all in 1 night.
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  #84  
Old 01-18-17, 12:04 PM
CoachYing CoachYing is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Looking at the state dual brackets, will the A side or the B side be hosting the 2nd round this year?
Each Regional Tournament shall be hosted by the highest seeded team in each sub-region with the Commissioner’s Office
authorized to move a site, if necessary. During each Regional Semifinal and Final Tournament the highest seeded team will
host. However, if the seeded teams which advance from each sub-region have the same seed number, then in odd
numbered years sub-region A will host and in even numbered years sub-region B will host.
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  #85  
Old 01-18-17, 01:13 PM
jopfer jopfer is offline
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Originally Posted by #Hashtag View Post
Just to play devil's advocate ---- Wouldn't it be easier to just accept the top 4 teams from each sub-region per coaches vote?

Region 8 for example ---
Instead of having 19 teams competing over the course of 2 weeks. Take top 4 from each sub-region and have it at 1 gym on 4 mats.

Opening round --
8A - Lak. East vs Moeller
8A - Lak. West vs Loveland
8B - Elder vs Harrison
8B - LaSalle vs Fairfield

3 wins to win your region all in 1 night.
From hearing from coaches and this thread, there is an issue with coaches voting.
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