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  #1  
Old 12-19-13, 01:35 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Ask the Ref?

We've had several threads like this in the various forums and we have a certified official that is willing to answer questions about the rules of the game. Feel free to ask the questions in this thread.
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  #2  
Old 12-19-13, 09:00 AM
hssportsfan hssportsfan is offline
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Halftime

Is there a set/mandatory amount of time to be given for intermission(between 2nd and 3rd periods) in a high school game? If so, does this also apply from grades 7-12 since the OHSAA oversees sports from 7-12?
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  #3  
Old 12-19-13, 09:26 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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10 minute intermission between halves in a game governed by NFHS rules.

It can be extended to a maximum of 15 minutes for special activities.
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  #4  
Old 12-19-13, 09:33 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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AllSports, can you explain how officials are taught to call rebounding position/fouls... aka the "over the back" call?
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  #5  
Old 12-19-13, 12:00 PM
NEOHGTI NEOHGTI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
AllSports, can you explain how officials are taught to call rebounding position/fouls... aka the "over the back" call?
I know you asked AllSports personally - so you can take this FWIW or ignore it.

I think you nail it in your phrasing of the 1st part of the sentence - 'rebounding position' being your specific wording. 'Over the back' is a common phrase, but doesn't really describe anything that is a foul - nor is it mentioned in the rules...nor is there even a mechanic (signal) for it. Our mechanics are pretty simple regarding contact fouls - there are only five that describe specific contact, and three of those involve the hands (holding; illegal use of; hand check). The other two signals are: blocking and pushing or charging.

I look for displacement and/or contact that is beyond incidental. Usually the Trail or the Center (in 3-man) are looking for this type of contact, but any official can call it if he/she sees it, obviously.

Rule 4-37 addresses rebounding. The simplest of the philosophy is what is mentioned last - "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court, provided the player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." The specific infraction regarding positioning is described as "To obtain or maintain legal rebounding position, a player may not: Displace, charge or push an opponent."

If a player is tall enough and talented enough to reach over a shorter player and pick the ball 'clean'? There is no infraction. That said, if the shorter player reaches up or jumps up into the outstretched arms of an opponent reaching over them and contact occurs? The opponent is guilty of violating the principle of verticality. I signal that as being illegal use of hands. If a player displaces an opponent with their body - regardless of whether it's from the front or back - I simply call it pushing. Too many coaches seem to believe their player is allowed to push a player by backing them out away from the basket and think it's 'boxing out'. It's not - it's a push foul.

Now - in girls BB especially, the challenge for we officials becomes the issue of spacing. I'm not entirely sure if it's a coaching issue - but girls teams, more so than boys teams in general - seem to lose track of spacing during rebounding. They get wayyyy too 'inside' for a legit shot at a rebound. It's often the case where you'll have 6-7 players inside the 3-ft radius from the center of the hoop.

Two things occur - both of which are not good. One - with all those bodies in such a tight cluster, contact is bound to occur. Such incidental contact doesn't necessarily mean A FOUL AUTOMATICALLY OCCURRED. Many times they're all legally jumping and maintaining verticality, but are clanging into each other simply because there are too many bodies in too small a radius. The second thing that's bad is - rebounds seldom 'fall' so close to the basket. Often they bounce further out - to maybe that 5-8 ft 'sweet spot' away from the center of the basket radius...so they all end up literally diving out to attempt to snag a loose ball near the floor, and (natch) a lot of incidental contact occurs. It happens over and over and over again. Again - I'm not sure...but I suspect it's the principle of physics and spacing too few coaches address. There's little to be gained when 2 or 3 of your 5 players are clustered so tightly around the center of the basket.

Sorry for being long winded - but this is a fairly common philosophy of the baskeball officials I work with...the vast majority of us being Varsity '1's. I hope you find it to be helpful.

Last edited by NEOHGTI; 12-19-13 at 12:20 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-19-13, 02:26 PM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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Sorry didn't mean to exclude other officials, and I appreciate the response. Your answer is exactly what I understood the rule to be with the 'principle of verticality'.... it amazes me how often esp in the girls game that when a shot goes up, offensive players literally two hand push/shove defenders who have great position in the back to gain position and get offensive rebounds. As a coach, I tell my kids to not let them push them under the basket and to be stronger, but the call still should be made more often than it is.
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  #7  
Old 12-19-13, 02:50 PM
NEOHGTI NEOHGTI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
Sorry didn't mean to exclude other officials, and I appreciate the response. Your answer is exactly what I understood the rule to be with the 'principle of verticality'.... it amazes me how often esp in the girls game that when a shot goes up, offensive players literally two hand push/shove defenders who have great position in the back to gain position and get offensive rebounds. As a coach, I tell my kids to not let them push them under the basket and to be stronger, but the call still should be made more often than it is.
If an official sees a deliberate push or shove, it should always be called, no question about it.

One additoinal thought - from our POV. If the crew is two man, it can be very difficult for this 'early' shove you describe to be seen. If the shot is in the Trail's primary coverage area (PCA), he/she has to delay diverting his/her focus away from the shooter until sure no shooting foul occurred there. By the time the Trail can divert and look back into the paint...the foul may have already occurred. Meanwhile, the Lead may be 'straight lined', by the defender's body (the one being fouled) from seeing a shove in the back - from the opposite side of the paint.

Last edited by NEOHGTI; 12-19-13 at 03:15 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-19-13, 03:19 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
AllSports, can you explain how officials are taught to call rebounding position/fouls... aka the "over the back" call?
"

Teach them the Principle of Verticallity (vital all over the floor), watch for displacement, know that "over" or "on" the back is not a foul.....

....and finally, there can be contact, regardless whether a player has textbook position, and not be a foul....
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  #9  
Old 12-19-13, 03:44 PM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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Thanks for the answers you two, much appreciated
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  #10  
Old 12-19-13, 11:13 PM
Moses Malone Moses Malone is offline
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2 separate questions...
1). With a loose ball I often see a player dive to the ground, have possession and then an opponent dive on top or across a player and ties up ball...this becomes a jump ball, but I can't figure out why the second player in isn't called for a foul...I'm talking clearly second player in, not a bang, bang play....seems this is a safety issue. First player is defenseless basically.
2). Seems that defensive rebounders can be swarmed by other team after completing a rebound, by the team missing the shot with major contact allowed and again, jump balls called. This contact/swarming seems to get progressively worse as game goes along and often leads to defensive rebounders beginning to swing elbows etc. again, another safety issue and could be controlled early in the game if called or at least told to stay off rebounder....to be clear, I'm talking textbook rebounding and possessing, not putting the ball at the waist which clearly is bad technique and can legitimately be a held ball. I'm all for physical play to a degree but I even see in high school games this and I don't think it should even happen at youth levels, but I assume it must be taught and with no repercussion I guess that's why it occurs...
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  #11  
Old 12-20-13, 06:25 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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1) What you describe is a foul. In fact, this was a point of emphasis in 2008. That being said, it's still a judgment call by the official. More consistency is desired and it's getting better, but it's not where it should be.

2) Again, purely a judgment call by the official. "Swarming" is not a foul, provided illegal personal contact is not involved. What the rules committee is trying to do with the emphasis on elbow contact above the shoulders is eliminate the practice of getting the elbows outside the frame of the body. I agree that many times illegal personal contact is not called, however, the mere presence of two or more defenders in a legal position attempting to take the ball from the player in control is not a foul. Trying to "clear space" by flaring and then swinging elbows is illegal and should be called.

We are in the second year of the emphasis on elbow contact above the shoulders. We are a long way away from correcting it, but i think it will get better before it gets worse.
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  #12  
Old 12-20-13, 09:12 AM
Moses Malone Moses Malone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
1) What you describe is a foul. In fact, this was a point of emphasis in 2008. That being said, it's still a judgment call by the official. More consistency is desired and it's getting better, but it's not where it should be.

2) Again, purely a judgment call by the official. "Swarming" is not a foul, provided illegal personal contact is not involved. What the rules committee is trying to do with the emphasis on elbow contact above the shoulders is eliminate the practice of getting the elbows outside the frame of the body. I agree that many times illegal personal contact is not called, however, the mere presence of two or more defenders in a legal position attempting to take the ball from the player in control is not a foul. Trying to "clear space" by flaring and then swinging elbows is illegal and should be called.

We are in the second year of the emphasis on elbow contact above the shoulders. We are a long way away from correcting it, but i think it will get better before it gets worse.
1). I've watched over 100 games easy the last 5 years, plus JV and AAU and have NEVER seen a foul called. Especially if 2008 was supposed to start an emphasis
2). I was definitely talking about illegal contact, not just trapping or mirroring the ball....
Thx for reply
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Old 12-24-13, 10:49 AM
cougarballin cougarballin is offline
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Question...might seem silly but Ive never seen it done but could see a need for it ...can you call back to back time outs?..like in football. This would be used more in the youth level im sure. But lets say you call a time out to set up a press break..and when they go back on the floor the opposing team goes to a trap set up or something. Could you call another timeout once you seen what they were doing?
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  #14  
Old 12-24-13, 11:33 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougarballin View Post
Question...might seem silly but Ive never seen it done but could see a need for it ...can you call back to back time outs?..like in football. This would be used more in the youth level im sure. But lets say you call a time out to set up a press break..and when they go back on the floor the opposing team goes to a trap set up or something. Could you call another timeout once you seen what they were doing?
Under National Federation rules (High School), successive time-outs are permitted except after time has expired after the fourth or any extra period (overtime period).

During regulation, there is no limit on how many successive time-outs you wish to use.
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  #15  
Old 02-09-14, 09:49 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Carrying the ball...

I don't regularly attend girls' high school basketball, but I went to the Magnificat/Lakewood game yesterday afternoon. The game was interesting for a half but it turned into a Mags' blowout. Mags' was a little better and wore Lakewood out with their depth.

One thing I noticed is that the players (both teams) carry the ball frequently (and egregiously imo) yet there were no violations called. I asked a parent of one of the players and he thought about it and said I guess you're right but I go to all of the games so I've gotten used to it and don't notice it.

Thoughts? Is this a violation that is being ignored in girls' HS b-ball?

Last edited by CatAlum; 02-09-14 at 01:44 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-09-14, 03:45 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Ignored? No

Inconsistently called? Probably

Pure judgment calls are always subject to criticism by fans.

Last edited by AllSports12; 02-11-14 at 06:43 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-15-15, 01:01 PM
wscolts wscolts is offline
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When did officials become sensitive to sideline comments between coach and player? Going so far as to become confrontational.
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  #18  
Old 02-15-15, 01:43 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wscolts View Post
When did officials become sensitive to sideline comments between coach and player? Going so far as to become confrontational.
Without more details there's no way we can tell what happened here. If you have more information, you can share it and possibly we can discuss what may or may not have happened. If the discussion is just about what you didn't like about what the official did or did not do, I'll have to delete the comments.

It's been a while since a question has been asked in the girls' fourm, in fact activity in the entire girls BK forum has been way down compared to year's past.

However that doesn't change the purpose of this thread. It's for asking and discussing serious questions about rules and mechanics. Please help us to keep it this way.

Thanks....
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  #19  
Old 03-14-15, 08:07 PM
maven maven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Carrying the ball...

I don't regularly attend girls' high school basketball, but I went to the Magnificat/Lakewood game yesterday afternoon. The game was interesting for a half but it turned into a Mags' blowout. Mags' was a little better and wore Lakewood out with their depth.

One thing I noticed is that the players (both teams) carry the ball frequently (and egregiously imo) yet there were no violations called. I asked a parent of one of the players and he thought about it and said I guess you're right but I go to all of the games so I've gotten used to it and don't notice it.

Thoughts? Is this a violation that is being ignored in girls' HS b-ball?
This rule is widely misunderstood. A carry is an illegal dribble, technically a double dribble. The dribble ends when the dribbler "palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands" (4-15-4b). We get this violation only when the hand is directly under the ball, so that it comes to rest. If the ball handler dribbles again, the result is a palm/carry violation and a double dribble.

When the hand is on the side, that's not a carry unless the dribbler has changed directions suddenly so that the ball comes to rest in the hand. Although this looks bad/ugly, especially when it happens in space, it is not illegal.

A dribbler with a big "swing" of the hand around the ball has seldom allowed the ball to come to rest in the hand, and therefore has not ended the dribble or carried.
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  #20  
Old 06-16-15, 08:46 AM
HumbleBragger HumbleBragger is offline
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Carrying the ball..

Here's the other side of it...

As an official of 21 years, the more experienced official does not call every carry. You tend to ignore the carry when the ball is just being dribbled at half court or at the 3point line. It is a subjective call. Most experienced officials will call the carry ONLY WHEN the offensive players uses its to an advantage or it is extremely obvious and to a detriment to the game. If the offensive player is driving towards the basket while carrying, I will make that call every time. If a player is "kinda" carrying the ball and dribble at half court and not advancing towards the basket, I will let it go.

It is the same as a foul or a charge. it is very subjective. There are technical calls that you can't ignore. Ball bounces on the line, a shooter's foot is on the 3point line, backcourt violation, etc.

It is my judgment as an official if I call that carry, what a block/charge is, or even the common foul which is why sometimes you may hear a player's arm or leg get slack going up for layup but no call is made. It is subjective to what that official thinks a foul is.

The best officials are officials who played the game, learned the rules, attend class and has officiated for some years. Because of your experience playing, you understand more which fouls to call even though most fans will not agree.

If 6'3" girl gets smacked on the arm and 5'2" girl gets smacked going up for a layup, are they same foul? NO. Any player in the act of shooting a jump shot is.

A post player going up for a rebound and getting hit is different than a guard going up for a rebound and getting hit.

90% of the calls made are subjective calls. The best officials know the game.
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  #21  
Old 01-06-16, 09:31 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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Do Tattoos need to be covered?
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  #22  
Old 01-07-16, 08:00 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadz06 View Post
Do Tattoos need to be covered?
Not by rule
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  #23  
Old 01-22-16, 09:57 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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How many can you dress for a game?
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  #24  
Old 01-22-16, 10:45 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wadz06 View Post
How many can you dress for a game?
36 for regular season games (equal to how many legal numbers there are)

15 for tournament play in Ohio.
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  #25  
Old 02-10-16, 11:50 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stowdawg View Post
I have watched coaches over the years Get T'd up. I have watched them get tossed. All of these years I have never seen a official with a ax to grind ever be held accountable.

Say a coach was T up the last time he had this official and then the official comes back and blatantly calls the game against him. What accountability does
this official have.
I am sure a complaint to the state can be made. The coach is immediately suspended for 2 games fined 100 dollars and has to take anger management courses. When he is tossed from a game. I have seen over the last 20 years officials becoming more personal and coming into games with a chip on their shoulder.

What if anything can be done to hold these officials accountable. while the coach gets tossed the official calls a game the next day with no question.
Stowdawg......

This thread is for serious questions regarding the rules of basketball. If you have an axe to grind against officials, please take it to the basketball forum ( I may engage you in the discussion) as your question here will be deleted...

Thanks for understanding...

AS12
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  #26  
Old 03-05-16, 03:52 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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What's happens if a player if fouled hard enough and they cannot continue to play, hence not be able to shoot their free throws
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  #27  
Old 03-06-16, 07:54 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadz06 View Post
What's happens if a player if fouled hard enough and they cannot continue to play, hence not be able to shoot their free throws
She/he is replaced by any teammate their head coach desires.
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  #28  
Old 12-07-16, 12:18 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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Team A is shooting 2 from the foul line, does team B need to have anyone under the basket? A ref the other day made team B put two players down there as coach had all 5 near sidleline and coaching them on the first shot. Team B was on other side of half court


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  #29  
Old 12-07-16, 12:26 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadz06 View Post
Team A is shooting 2 from the foul line, does team B need to have anyone under the basket? A ref the other day made team B put two players down there as coach had all 5 near sidleline and coaching them on the first shot. Team B was on other side of half court


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Unless the free throws were being shot as a penalty for a Technical or Intentional Foul, or if the throws were to be attempted after time expired in any period, by rule B must occupy the low spot on each side of the free throw lane.
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Old 01-18-17, 07:06 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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This is in reference to an NCAA D3 game, but I figured this was the best place to ask:
Team A has the ball on their end of the floor. Team A's coach says something to get a technical. Team B shot two free throws but Team A retained possession.

Is this handleddifferent in college than in high school? I always thought a technical was two shots and possession.
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