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  #61  
Old 11-15-18, 11:30 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
I have yet to see a game decided by a mistake due to an official carrying a few extra pounds.

I have seen many missed calls, including my own, caused due to not following our mechanics. Both overweight and in-shape officials are guilty of this.

Again, this is high school sports. Talk about how important the games are to "the kids, the community, the coaches" all you want - at the end of the day the sun will come up the next day.
Agree on all your points but it is not hard to be in shape for a job that running is required.
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  #62  
Old 11-15-18, 11:33 AM
RB22 RB22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
No because I work a lot of Friday and Saturday nights. But if someone is going to be a zebra do the best job possible which means be in decent shape. Of course NFL zebras get paid well but how many fat NFL refs do you see, not many if any at all.


I work on Fridays too but I make time to do it. I am working is no excuse. You obviously have time to go to the games. Every official IS doing the best job possible. As with every profession there are some that donít uphold the standard. That doesnít give you the right to bash us all


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  #63  
Old 11-15-18, 11:34 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
No because I work a lot of Friday and Saturday nights. But if someone is going to be a zebra do the best job possible which means be in decent shape. Of course NFL zebras get paid well but how many fat NFL refs do you see, not many if any at all.
Are you free Wednesday and Thursday afternoons, or Saturday mornings?

OK, you're right. No one who weighs more than 250 pounds should be allowed to ref a high school game. Good luck.
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  #64  
Old 11-15-18, 11:34 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
No because I work a lot of Friday and Saturday nights. But if someone is going to be a zebra do the best job possible which means be in decent shape. Of course NFL zebras get paid well but how many fat NFL refs do you see, not many if any at all.
NFL officials made six figures a year. High school officials in Ohio make less than $100 a game. This is not our full-time job.

Many officials that could stand to lose a few pounds do an excellent job. I will give it to you that they may give off the wrong perception, but at the end of the day coaches and assigners want officials who know what they are doing and get plays right.
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  #65  
Old 11-15-18, 11:36 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Agree on all your points but it is not hard to be in shape for a job that running is required.
Officiating high school football is hardly a "job." I barely even turn a profit by the time I factor in all my expenses.

If you want NFL-looking officials then be prepared to pay the rates for NFL officials.
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  #66  
Old 11-15-18, 11:40 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolisOver View Post
It’s not the quantity of flags but “quality of officiating by the rules”.
I found some clips of the Massie vs London game this weekend on YouTube that a parent posted of some BLATANT misses that could have resulted in major injuries. No this is NOT WWF and that turf is not a springfloor for body slams of athletes who are not even carrying the ball.
What say you to THOSE OFFICIALS???

Here is one


And the other





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I've seen the clips and heard about the first play late that evening. The player being body slammed is a missed call. Period. It happens.

The second play is a classic example of a short clip that may not tell the whole story of the play.... and here's why.... maybe that player is simulating that he has the ball and is a runner. (note the offense that is being run...lots of deception) If that's the case, you have absolutely nothing on this play.

Taking two plays out of 100 or so and indicting a whole group is ignorant. Particularly when one of the plays won't garner a flag from most officials to begin with.
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  #67  
Old 11-15-18, 11:45 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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The most I've been paid for a high school game is $75. The NFL average is about $12,000 a game.
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  #68  
Old 11-15-18, 11:56 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
The most I've been paid for a high school game is $75. The NFL average is about $12,000 a game.
To add to this,

NFL officials are employees of the NFL.

OHSAA officials are independent contractors.
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  #69  
Old 11-15-18, 12:01 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Agree on all your points but it is not hard to be in shape for a job that running is required.
And again, I have worked with officials pushing 300 lbs that are fantastic at what they do.

Ask any coach if they'd rather have a guy who doesn't move as well as others but knows how to get an angle that produces consistent, correct results or a guy who is a lightning bolt who kicks frequent calls that he's on top of......

As noted prior.... It's High School Football
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  #70  
Old 11-15-18, 12:15 PM
flash18 flash18 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I've seen the clips and heard about the first play late that evening. The player being body slammed is a missed call. Period. It happens.

The second play is a classic example of a short clip that may not tell the whole story of the play.... and here's why.... maybe that player is simulating that he has the ball and is a runner. (note the offense that is being run...lots of deception) If that's the case, you have absolutely nothing on this play.

Taking two plays out of 100 or so and indicting a whole group is ignorant. Particularly when one of the plays won't garner a flag from most officials to begin with.
Blue team was on defense or kicking off definitely not offense as I see #45 and our kicker in the clip.
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  #71  
Old 11-15-18, 12:30 PM
HighSchoolisOver HighSchoolisOver is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I've seen the clips and heard about the first play late that evening. The player being body slammed is a missed call. Period. It happens.

The second play is a classic example of a short clip that may not tell the whole story of the play.... and here's why.... maybe that player is simulating that he has the ball and is a runner. (note the offense that is being run...lots of deception) If that's the case, you have absolutely nothing on this play.

Taking two plays out of 100 or so and indicting a whole group is ignorant. Particularly when one of the plays won't garner a flag from most officials to begin with.


In BOTH INSTANCES neither of those are techniques for tackling NOR blocking. Everyone including 5 officials saw these body slams. You wrap and take to the ground with you- not toss over a shoulder!
The second one was a kickoff and the receiving team ( White) is directly in front of the official as they doubled a pursuing kicking team ( Blue) and walked him away from the pile- threw him (offensive holding) then kicked him!
While these are 2 out of 100, These ARE the impacts that remain after the game (injury, lack of safety, lack of respect...). Paid or paid low, does not excuse slanted opinions week after week.
These athletes have lives off the field as well, but officials impact more than scores Iím afraid.




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  #72  
Old 11-15-18, 01:04 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by HighSchoolisOver View Post
In BOTH INSTANCES neither of those are techniques for tackling NOR blocking. Everyone including 5 officials saw these body slams. You wrap and take to the ground with you- not toss over a shoulder!
You have no idea what the officials were looking at. (Nor do I) I can tell you that there should not have been 5 sets of eyes looking at the player getting body slammed. (if you think that, then you have no idea what officials are supposed to be looking at...which is typical for the average fan)

It was a missed foul, period. Should we revoke the covering official's license?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HighSchoolisOver View Post
The second one was a kickoff and the receiving team ( White) is directly in front of the official as they doubled a pursuing kicking team ( Blue) and walked him away from the pile- threw him (offensive holding) then kicked him!
Don't see a kick.

That said, I've passed on things similar to this. It's certainly not as egregious as the action in clip #1 and no official is calling a hold on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighSchoolisOver View Post
While these are 2 out of 100, These ARE the impacts that remain after the game (injury, lack of safety, lack of respect...). Paid or paid low, does not excuse slanted opinions week after week.
These athletes have lives off the field as well, but officials impact more than scores I’m afraid.
So one missed personal foul and one that can be argued (lots of other factors to take into consideration) and the officials are somehow "slanted" ?

Do you know what the conversation was following the game between the officiating observer and the crew ?

Last edited by AllSports12; 11-15-18 at 01:17 PM.
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  #73  
Old 11-15-18, 08:14 PM
mike45069 mike45069 is offline
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What's wrong with the body slam play in that first video? He is running a read option or option play and had just handed off, he may keep it the next time. There's no rule that you have to form tackle is there? I just dont see a problem with the body slam tackle. I thought it was kind of funny actually! I'm just not sure what the penalty would be for? Unnecessary roughness? I mean, what if he breaks the tackle, I think the defense wanted to make sure he was on the ground. I'm just not sure how that is a penalty. It's probably a penalty in the NFL but this guy is a running QB and almost still had the ball. Plus, high school still allows tackling quarterbacks, unlike the NFL, so it would seem like a legit tackle.
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  #74  
Old 11-15-18, 08:29 PM
RB22 RB22 is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
What's wrong with the body slam play in that first video? He is running a read option or option play and had just handed off, he may keep it the next time. There's no rule that you have to form tackle is there? I just dont see a problem with the body slam tackle. I thought it was kind of funny actually! I'm just not sure what the penalty would be for? Unnecessary roughness? I mean, what if he breaks the tackle, I think the defense wanted to make sure he was on the ground. I'm just not sure how that is a penalty. It's probably a penalty in the NFL but this guy is a running QB and almost still had the ball. Plus, high school still allows tackling quarterbacks, unlike the NFL, so it would seem like a legit tackle.


Should have been a Personal Foul, 15 yards. It was unnecessary to slam the QB to the ground to make a tackle. It was by no means funny.


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  #75  
Old 11-16-18, 07:56 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
What's wrong with the body slam play in that first video? He is running a read option or option play and had just handed off, he may keep it the next time. There's no rule that you have to form tackle is there?
Tackling is defined as.....

"the use of hands, arms, legs or body by a defensive player in his attempt to hold a runner or to bring him to the ground."

That didn't happen here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
I'm just not sure what the penalty would be for? Unnecessary roughness?
Since we've established that what occurred in clip #1 is not a tackle, lets look at what the rule says about illegal personal contact. (otherwise known as unnecessary roughness)......

Rule 9-4-3.... "No player or non-player shall....."

g) Make any other contact with an opponent, including a defenseless player, which is deemed unnecessary or excessive and which incites roughness.


Clip #1 is an illegal act under every football rule code.
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  #76  
Old 11-16-18, 08:05 AM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Good luck to All the Officials across the State Officiating Football tonight. Thankless job that must be done.
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  #77  
Old 11-16-18, 10:49 AM
mike45069 mike45069 is offline
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I'm always amazed they are able to get officials willing to work in the frigid November temperatures for these playoff games. Refs are just tough, to be able to do it without the ability to have 3 sweatshirts and a jacket like us fans wrapped up under blankets. And they likely dont make any real profit after driving to the game. Even if they're within an hour of the game, you're talking 4 to 5 hours round trip. It would be more profitable to work at the local taco bell for a night. Big kudos for these guys basically volunteering and bracing the elements! As far as that body slam video, I still wonder what the defensive guy is supposed to do when he wrapped him up and the guy is airborne. A gentle laying him on the ground?
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  #78  
Old 11-16-18, 12:04 PM
DaPope DaPope is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
I'm always amazed they are able to get officials willing to work in the frigid November temperatures for these playoff games. Refs are just tough, to be able to do it without the ability to have 3 sweatshirts and a jacket like us fans wrapped up under blankets. And they likely dont make any real profit after driving to the game. Even if they're within an hour of the game, you're talking 4 to 5 hours round trip. It would be more profitable to work at the local taco bell for a night. Big kudos for these guys basically volunteering and bracing the elements! As far as that body slam video, I still wonder what the defensive guy is supposed to do when he wrapped him up and the guy is airborne. A gentle laying him on the ground?
So, here is breakdown for most people that just don't know....

Arrive 5:30pm (at the latest)

Take the Field 6:15pm

Kickoff 7:00pm

Average Finish 9:30pm

After a shower leaving about 10:00pm (add in OT or two Pass Heavy teams, could be 10:30pm)

All for a whopping $70

The Playoff pay a little better at $140 for the first 3 rounds and $190 for the State Semis and Finals (plus mileage)

So you are correct... no one is makes much money!

And anyone throws a flag on Play #1 doesn't know the game of Football well enough to Officiate.
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  #79  
Old 11-16-18, 12:06 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
As far as that body slam video, I still wonder what the defensive guy is supposed to do when he wrapped him up and the guy is airborne. A gentle laying him on the ground?
If he had just tackled him, it would have been perfectly legal. However, his actions nowhere near met the definition of a legal tackle, therefore it's a foul.

In fact, this is a foul even if he had the ball in his possession.

Last edited by AllSports12; 11-16-18 at 12:26 PM.
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  #80  
Old 11-16-18, 12:56 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Just one note, having worked high school games with 4, 5, 6 (CJ), 6 (2 deep wings), and 7 officials here are my thoughts.

7 would be ideal but also difficult for the reasons stated above, ie higher costs, officials transitioning, and not having state mechanics.

If you use 6, I much prefer having a CJ over an extra deep wing. You lose the back judge in that scenario and you have no eyes from the middle of the field on passing plays. I would prefer 5 to 6 in that regard. While the CJ doesn't have much to do, it does give another set of eyes on most of the action.
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  #81  
Old 11-16-18, 12:58 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I would also prefer a good fat official over an in shape bad official 100 times out of 100.
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  #82  
Old 11-16-18, 01:05 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by DaPope View Post
And anyone throws a flag on Play #1 doesn't know the game of Football well enough to Officiate.
I can't tell if you misspoke, are a troll, a faux official, or just don't know what you're talking about.
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  #83  
Old 11-16-18, 01:08 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
I'm always amazed they are able to get officials willing to work in the frigid November temperatures for these playoff games. Refs are just tough, to be able to do it without the ability to have 3 sweatshirts and a jacket like us fans wrapped up under blankets. And they likely dont make any real profit after driving to the game. Even if they're within an hour of the game, you're talking 4 to 5 hours round trip. It would be more profitable to work at the local taco bell for a night. Big kudos for these guys basically volunteering and bracing the elements! As far as that body slam video, I still wonder what the defensive guy is supposed to do when he wrapped him up and the guy is airborne. A gentle laying him on the ground?
They do make special fleece-lined zebra shirts for nights like tonight. Unfortunately one of them costs like an entire game check and you might wear it once a season, or not at all if you're not in the playoffs.

But you're right, there is only so much we can do to stay warm/dry in less-than-ideal conditions.

Layers.
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  #84  
Old 11-16-18, 01:35 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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I have never officiated football but I am OHSAA certified in baseball and wrestling officiating and I can tell you this....it is 1000x harder than you think. I grew up around baseball, my entire life. Played D1 college. I know the game better than the back of my hand. I thought umpiring would be a cakewalk....I probably blew 100 calls my first season...most minor, balls and strikes, but there are so many intricacies you must know, the wierdest things happen, something happens that you think is one thing but its different than you saw in the officials class or the rule book states...you have to process 1000 things in a microsecond sometimes....I learned last year that when a ball is hit into the outfield on the fly, 67 different possible scenarios can unfold on the basepaths, and that is just with a batter, not even a runner on base.

I have never done football, but I can only imagine it is much the same. Not making excuses...at the playoff level, it is justified to expect only the best officials, but to cherry pick and find a reason why their call doesn't match what you wanted....I agree with the above...take the class and suit up. I PROMISE you, even if you played in the NFL you will hose a call in the first quarter of your first game.
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  #85  
Old 11-16-18, 02:23 PM
Deep Deep is offline
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No comment.
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  #86  
Old 11-16-18, 03:19 PM
mike45069 mike45069 is offline
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Everything that has been said about officiating, how they make very little money, and how difficult it is... I absolutely am amazed they get enough officials to do it. What I can't understand, is growing up playing some high school basketball in the early 90s, we pretty much were taught never to speak to an official. I don't recall coaches saying much either to them. Then Bob Huggins happened here in Cincinnati. Now, it seems the entire game, the players converse with officials, and some coaches literally yell at officials the entire game (Moeller, former Lasalle guy, those 2 come to mind as the worst here in Cincy). Why do the officials put up with it? Assuming you are not allowed to just berate officials the whole game, why aren't technicals ever assessed against these abusive coaches? In football I am sure it's the same, but sitting up in the stands I don't really hear or notice it. I guess giving a technical in basketball gets you in bad favor with the assigners, but it's created a culture of Bob Thuggins type behavior on the sidelines and probably into other sports too. I can't blame the officials for not wanting to lose games in the leagues they are working, but there just has to be a better solution to letting these coaches run roughshed over the officials, especially in basketball.
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  #87  
Old 11-16-18, 04:22 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by mike45069 View Post
Everything that has been said about officiating, how they make very little money, and how difficult it is... I absolutely am amazed they get enough officials to do it. What I can't understand, is growing up playing some high school basketball in the early 90s, we pretty much were taught never to speak to an official. I don't recall coaches saying much either to them. Then Bob Huggins happened here in Cincinnati. Now, it seems the entire game, the players converse with officials, and some coaches literally yell at officials the entire game (Moeller, former Lasalle guy, those 2 come to mind as the worst here in Cincy). Why do the officials put up with it? Assuming you are not allowed to just berate officials the whole game, why aren't technicals ever assessed against these abusive coaches? In football I am sure it's the same, but sitting up in the stands I don't really hear or notice it. I guess giving a technical in basketball gets you in bad favor with the assigners, but it's created a culture of Bob Thuggins type behavior on the sidelines and probably into other sports too. I can't blame the officials for not wanting to lose games in the leagues they are working, but there just has to be a better solution to letting these coaches run roughshed over the officials, especially in basketball.
Most assigners do not kowtow to coaches. There are certainly some of them out there, but the vast majority don't discourage their officials from penalizing unsporting behavior (I don't work for any that do). Especially with the nationwide officials shortage, assigners can't really afford to just run off officials doing their job.

In Ohio, the coaches' ratings unfortunately play a role in the eligibility of postseason officials. As you can imagine, this results in officials being too worried about falling out of good graces with the coaches and passing on issuing technical fouls or throwing flags. Even though it's only one piece of an official's overall rating, it's enough for many to decide it's not worth it to risk upsetting a coach. It is wrong, but it's not going to change until we stop letting coaches have say in who works the playoffs.The coaches' ratings are not the only reason why officials let too much bad behavior go unpunished, but they certainly don't help. Another reason is that since it’s an automatic 2-game (1 in football) suspensiůn when a coach gets tossed, officials feel like they have to really make a coach earn it rather than just penalizing bad behavior.

Personally, I like to think I have a reputation for being firm but fair with coaches, warning them when conditions allow and handling business when required. I'm not too concerned with how one disgruntled coach rates me (and chances are the opposing coach will appreciate my willingness to issue the appropriate penalties). I do not let any coach, no matter how successful, intimidate me into kissing his rear end.

Also, within the officiating community, officials that have reputations for butt-kissing coaches generally are not respected as opposed to officials that have the stones to take care of business.

Last edited by zebrastripes; 11-16-18 at 04:58 PM.
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  #88  
Old 11-17-18, 02:14 AM
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The 95 rule. Explained to me by a friend who is a long time official. If you add the officials age and waist size together and it exceeds the number 95 you are very likely to get inconsistent calls. I.E if your 60 and your waist size is 40 you are probably not getting up and down the field too well.
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  #89  
Old 11-17-18, 05:44 AM
m14brian m14brian is offline
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This is so funny. So place even more physical requirement on Refs for football and you are going to get even less people who will referee. Itís hard getting people to do it now.
It HS football not the NFL, if your HS team lost because of a missed/bad call deal with it. Youíre not losing revenue over it, and its not the end of the world.
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  #90  
Old 11-17-18, 08:36 AM
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For what it's worth I think the officiating for the 3 playoff games for Colerain games has been outstanding. After watching the replays when I got home I found out that the few calls that I thought were questionable were for the most part correct.
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