Girls basketball 2012: Public vs. Private - Yappi Sports

CatAlum · #1 03-19-12, 12:27 PM

In a sport that privates do historically well; privates are about 16% of the OHSAA:

Sweet 16: 13 out of 64 were private (20%)
Final 4: 3 out of 16 were private (18%)
State Champs: 1 out of 4 were private (25%)

AAUSTINKS · #2 03-19-12, 12:31 PM

Sure hope your not putting the Nubians into the public category. They are far from it.

Auggie · #3 03-19-12, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAUSTINKS

Sure hope your not putting the Nubians into the public category. They are far from it.

What are they then? No way does the OHSAA have the cojones to take on a school like Africentric without political ramifications. Same thing with Glenville and Trotwood.

Maybe this is what life will look like in certain sports if there is a split; open enrollment urban schools like Africentric would dominate in certain high profile sports like football and both genders in basketball.

AAUSTINKS · #4 03-19-12, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auggie

What are they then? No way does the OHSAA have the cojones to take on a school like Africentric without political ramifications. Same thing with Glenville and Trotwood.

Maybe this is what life will look like in certain sports if there is a split; open enrollment urban schools like Africentric would dominate in certain high profile sports like football and both genders in basketball.

Lol...really?

And what is so special about the nubians? They've been around for what? 5 years? They bring about 8 fans to their games. Not a real big money maker for the OHSAA, and let's face it, that's what it's about.

CatAlum · #5 03-19-12, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAUSTINKS

Sure hope your not putting the Nubians into the public category. They are far from it.

Well, you may not like this particular public school, but it is definitely a public school.

User13 · #6 03-19-12, 06:05 PM

Interesting topic, CatAlum.

The Regina problem of a few years ago seems to have solved itself. And after a string of 4 straight D1 titles, MND is no longer the school of choice for good Cincinnati area basketball players.

Hathaway Brown is now a poster child for exploiting the advantages of private schools. Africentric, though public, is another situation that the OHSAA needs to look at. When a magnet school can assemble the Columbus all stars and compete in D3, that is an unlevel playing field and unfair to the more conventional small schools.

MCGal · #7 03-19-12, 10:47 PM

So the fact that publics "fixed" the problem by taking on the 'if you can't beat em join em' philosophy in increasing the number of transfers/move-ins/manufactured teams makes all of this ok?

The changes (damage imho) caused by the run of private schools dominating sports are far-reaching and will be difficult (read: impossible) to fix.

User13 · #8 03-19-12, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCGal

So the fact that publics "fixed" the problem by taking on the 'if you can't beat em join em' philosophy in increasing the number of transfers/move-ins/manufactured teams makes all of this ok?

The changes (damage imho) caused by the run of private schools dominating sports are far-reaching and will be difficult (read: impossible) to fix.

I agree.

But most publics have not fixed the problem. As an example, Bellbrook was the southwest D3 regional champ. They are a completely home grown team. Hathaway Brown crushed them, as they have done to most other opponents.

My understand is that Africentric Early College was created for academic purposes. But kids and parents are not dummies. It doesn't take long for them to figure out how to assemble a sports juggernaut at such a school. According to their web site, 90% of their players go on to play in college. While this is great for those girls it is a far cry from the talent level at a typical D3 school.

http://www.columbus.k12.oh.us/applic...)?OpenDocument

CatAlum · #9 03-20-12, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCGal

So the fact that publics "fixed" the problem by taking on the 'if you can't beat em join em' philosophy in increasing the number of transfers/move-ins/manufactured teams makes all of this ok?

The changes (damage imho) caused by the run of private schools dominating sports are far-reaching and will be difficult (read: impossible) to fix.

Always interested to read commentary from this particular poster who roots for a school that has a built in "2 for 1" advantage. Timken and McKinley. If Timken is down (as they usually are in most sports) you move over to McKinley. I believe her rose colored glasses cause her to view McKinley as one of those schools where the kids grow up on the same street and have to soldier on against all odds. Obviously, not true.

"Caused" by private schools? I disagree. In girls' basketball, by far the biggest factor in these collector schools coming into existence is the AAU culture. Quality girls players are in short supply compared to boys' basketball. They get together in grade school, grow to their final heights sooner (much easier to project success down the road when you watch them in 8th grade) and some decide they want to play together on a high school team. The high school they select is sometimes private, sometimes public. If it can be done (open enrollment, the necessary housing market), the public school makes more sense because it's free.

I also think private schools learn their lessons over time that catering to these sports teams (and possibly being fast and loose with tuition money) doesn't help the school's bottom line. Obviously it did nothing positive for Regina. HB is wealthy, successful and respected far beyond anything this basketball program could affect.

So Regina has left the scene, perhaps to be replaced by Twinsburg, or maybe Solon. My guess is that HB is far, far cleaner than Regina, though I'm also sure they have a fully-funded financial aid program. If the talented b-ball player is smart and wants to go to HB, the money issues will not stand in the way.

MCGal · #10 03-20-12, 06:30 AM

Always interesting to read one poster's biased take on what I think when we agree more often than disagree.... but I know you'll never see it. You don't know who I support or don't. I support a number of teams/kids. As for the '2 for 1', combine those two schools and you still aren't all that much bigger than Mentor or other large publics and you still don't sniff the area that some of the private schools you so vehemently defend pull from. I think it's comical too that you're including Africentric in the 'public school' ranks, but on that we'll have to disagree.

CatAlum · #11 03-20-12, 08:01 AM

I'm all ears. Would someone like to explain to me why Africentric IS NOT a public school?

User13 · #12 03-20-12, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCGal

I think it's comical too that you're including Africentric in the 'public school' ranks, but on that we'll have to disagree.

This link clearly shows that Africentric is one of the Columbus public high schools:

http://www.columbus.k12.oh.us/websit...s?opendocument

Having said that, I think the OHSAA needs to look at their situation. They have an unfair advantage (in girls basketball) over most other D3 schools.

CatAlum · #13 03-20-12, 12:05 PM

I'm assuming the complaint about Africentric is the same one that could be applied to Northland in boys' basketball, Glenville in football, etc...a public school in a large, multi-school district that has open enrollment within the district. Is that correct?

girls b-ball coach · #14 03-20-12, 12:37 PM

Africentric is clearly a Columbus Public School, but they are k-12 in one building so they know who their middle school players are just as well as their high school players. This is why they are div 3 becasue their population is k-12 and not just high school so they don't have as many kids in the school as other schools do. The Africentric school has done nothing wrong but competed against the best competition and played a top of the line schedule to boot. Coach Mckinney has only prepared those ladies to run a college level system and that why his program is having so much success. The key word i use if you may have not noticed is program. Let look at resumes as well. It really bothers me when people can't just praise the hard work that these kids put in to get to this point. At the end of the day every team they played had a chance to beat them. Some did and some didn't so whats to be said about that other that job well done.

Games vs.
St. Michaels #1 country
Toledo Start- won
hathaway brown-won
berlin highland-won
whitney young, Ill- #10 country
Reynoldsburg, -won
North Marion, wv #17- won
Huntington Prep,
Canton Mckinley
North Canton Hoover, won
Wadsworth- won
Brookhaven, won
Northland-won
Toledo Waite-won
lutheran east -won
regina -won
and not to mention numerous wins on the big stage at classic in the country.

AAUSTINKS · #15 03-20-12, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by girls b-ball coach

Africentric is clearly a Columbus Public School, but they are k-12 in one building so they know who their middle school players are just as well as their high school players. This is why they are div 3 becasue their population is k-12 and not just high school so they don't have as many kids in the school as other schools do. The Africentric school has done nothing wrong but competed against the best competition and played a top of the line schedule to boot. Coach Mckinney has only prepared those ladies to run a college level system and that why his program is having so much success. The key word i use if you may have not noticed is program. Let look at resumes as well. It really bothers me when people can't just praise the hard work that these kids put in to get to this point. At the end of the day every team they played had a chance to beat them. Some did and some didn't so whats to be said about that other that job well done.

Games vs.
St. Michaels #1 country
Toledo Start- won
hathaway brown-won
berlin highland-won
whitney young, Ill- #10 country
Reynoldsburg, -won
North Marion, wv #17- won
Huntington Prep,
Canton Mckinley
North Canton Hoover, won
Wadsworth- won
Brookhaven, won
Northland-won
Toledo Waite-won
lutheran east -won
regina -won
and not to mention numerous wins on the big stage at classic in the country.

So all schools have an opportunity to recruit players from a city the size of Columbus? "Program"...includes recruiting.

MCGal · #16 03-20-12, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatAlum

I'm assuming the complaint about Africentric is the same one that could be applied to Northland in boys' basketball, Glenville in football, etc...a public school in a large, multi-school district that has open enrollment within the district. Is that correct?

I can see the comparisons here and will grant you that definition of public schools. It's very similar to Glenville's football program by that description.

CatAlum · #17 03-20-12, 08:14 PM

What concerns me about this topic and the "take" on Africentric...some deranged people will view this situation as a reason to vote for separation of publics and privates!

MCGal · #18 03-20-12, 08:21 PM

I understand that point.. I'm not all about separating them totally but some controls on the transfer/move-in madness and something along the lines of the multiplier system previously looked into would be more my preference.

AAUSTINKS · #19 03-21-12, 07:33 AM

It just takes a couple of Africentrics with no integrity to ruin a once great tournament.

User13 · #20 03-21-12, 09:35 AM

I blame the OHSAA more that the schools and players. I have seen no evidence that Africentric or Hathaway Brown violated any rules. But the OHSAA has a long history of weak enforcement of its rules on recruiting. And they have refused to make a separate division for private schools or even use a size multiplier. It's not an easy problem to solve, but their approach has been to do nothing. Fans of Anna, West Holmes, Smithville, and Bellbrook have a right to be upset.

eastisbest · #21 03-21-12, 09:58 AM

Private Schools: If a kid's family can show they are the ones paying the tuition and that they are paying full tuition, I can see no reasonable arguement against a team "assembling"themselves. People have a right to go to the school and IMO, a right to the extracurriculars. I also think under those conditions, OHSAA should have no controversy over their membership.

Magnet/Charter schools are more difficult to quantify. SOME Magnet schools have stiff academic requirements that have to be met in order to stay. They are not just "theme" schools. If a school can support that their players are meeting those academic standards, I couldn't argue even semantics. I'd want them part of my organization.

Magnet schools that are part of Toledo do not have teams. Kids attending those schools would play for their district team.

icabod · #22 03-21-12, 10:00 AM

When did Africentric play Wadsworth?

CatAlum · #23 03-21-12, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastisbest

Private Schools: If a kid's family can show they are the ones paying the tuition and that they are paying full tuition, I can see no reasonable arguement against a team "assembling"themselves.

And those who legitimately qualify for a reduced tuition (financial aid)?

FWIW...full tuition at Hathaway Brown is in the vicinity of $25,000 per year, but probably 50-60% of the student body pays some lesser amount.

eastisbest · #24 03-22-12, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatAlum

And those who legitimately qualify for a reduced tuition (financial aid)?

FWIW...full tuition at Hathaway Brown is in the vicinity of $25,000 per year, but probably 50-60% of the student body pays some lesser amount.

So long as we agree we're debating hypotheticals...

I would say "no." It's a private business, a choice to buy or not. It's not food. It's not housing. There are even other less expensive private educations available. There is no "legitimate" qualification for reduced tuition. If the school has over-priced themselves, let them lower the price for all. There is no right to a superior basketball team obtained from reduced tuition players.

If someone wants to take open enrollment for any reason, off the table, how can they accept monetary gifts to athletes?

CatAlum · #25 03-24-12, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastisbest

So long as we agree we're debating hypotheticals...

I would say "no." It's a private business, a choice to buy or not. It's not food. It's not housing. There are even other less expensive private educations available. There is no "legitimate" qualification for reduced tuition. If the school has over-priced themselves, let them lower the price for all. There is no right to a superior basketball team obtained from reduced tuition players.

If someone wants to take open enrollment for any reason, off the table, how can they accept monetary gifts to athletes?

Does this attitude apply to all tuition-charging academic institutions? One tuition fits all? High school? College? No financial aid for anyone? OSU is 20 grand-ish for everyone? Harvard is 55k no matter your need?

Hurri-Comet · #26 03-24-12, 01:27 PM

Ho hum, so what's going on with the boys hoops, pubes and privates?

eastisbest · #27 03-24-12, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatAlum

Does this attitude apply to all tuition-charging academic institutions? One tuition fits all? High school? College? No financial aid for anyone? OSU is 20 grand-ish for everyone? Harvard is 55k no matter your need?

Are you interested in a debate or investigating people's colons. What's your take? And I thought we were talking about high school. Did the topic change while I was sleeping?

CatAlum · #28 03-24-12, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastisbest

Are you interested in a debate or investigating people's colons. What's your take? And I thought we were talking about high school. Did the topic change while I was sleeping?

Nice dodge.

My take...cleanly operated financial aid programs are fine, even praiseworthy in any school that charges tuition, be it high school or college. Allowing a poor kid to attend Harvard (or St. Ignatius) at a reduced rate is a good thing.

Admittedly, financial aid can be used in a crooked fashion, to acquire athletic talent. I have always been comforted by the fact that, at least on the high school level, using precious financial aid dollars improperly to win sporting events usually is counter to a financially well-run institution.

Josey Wales · #29 03-26-12, 02:25 PM

Africentric has definitely not beat Reynoldsburg though I did see the Raiders blast them in the preseason.

eastisbest · #30 03-26-12, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatAlum

Nice dodge.

My take...cleanly operated financial aid programs are fine, even praiseworthy in any school that charges tuition, be it high school or college. Allowing a poor kid to attend Harvard (or St. Ignatius) at a reduced rate is a good thing.

Admittedly, financial aid can be used in a crooked fashion, to acquire athletic talent. I have always been comforted by the fact that, at least on the high school level, using precious financial aid dollars improperly to win sporting events usually is counter to a financially well-run institution.

Dodged nothing. You went off topic.

But now that you're back on, I think you're thinking is not in-line with some private school operators. They do see it as a financial win. It's a lottery. Bringing in the "one" special talent invites returns should that talent actually succeed big-time and donate back. That IS the thinking, not a philanthropic mandate. Be nice if they had to open the books a bit to see just who is getting the money.

Since these private high schools get to dictate their own tuitions, "financial aid" seems a misnomer to me. They could just as well lower the tuition for everyone, then be more affordable for all instead of jacking it up then giving "aid" to "poor" recruited athletes.

Books open or no money given to athletes: problem gone.