agreed, but out of fairness, most of the time in those kind of situations (i.e. playoff games) the pitcher WANTS to stay in the game and finish. Im not saying that it is the right thing for a coach to listen to his players when it could hurt them but most good pitchers would want to stay in an important game rather than be pulled for their pitch count. I have seen the opposite happen when a pitcher is pulled too early and the team feels the consequences when the starter actually had more in the tank to give. Its all part of coaching.
Some coaches have a history of riding their ace's too hard. A good coach does not let a teenager talk him into risking his arm. No matter how you stack it 150 pitches is insane. No excuses!
As I said, the coach should not listen to the player if he is at risk of being hurt, I was just bringing up a common situation where a player would not want to be pulled out of an important game in which he is still pitching at a high level in. You also have to take in account that some pitcher actually are conditioned correctly to go deep into ball games with high pitch counts and know how to properly recover. 150 pitches obviously too much, but around the 100 mark is where it starts to get controversial.
As I said, the coach should not listen to the player if he is at risk of being hurt, I was just bringing up a common situation where a player would not want to be pulled out of an important game in which he is still pitching at a high level in. You also have to take in account that some pitcher actually are conditioned correctly to go deep into ball games with high pitch counts and know how to properly recover. 150 pitches obviously too much, but around the 100 mark is where it starts to get controversial.
Agreed. At the younger ages, the formula that works for me is the players age X 6 = pitch count +/- 6. Once you get to where the formula reaches 100 then you have to consider the level of conditioning and past experience with the pitcher on an individual basis. But as I stated before, never under any circumstances, 150 pitches.
According to the GWOC site it was 122.2 over the last 2 years.
I don't think they count post-season stats...or do they?
It's not just Creager. Another prominent pitcher in a different program had not quite that many innings and also had some arm issues.
I agree that pitch count is an important consideration and probably means more than innings. However, some programs seem to have a history of riding certain pitchers for conference games with little regard for pitch count.
In a championship game at the 12U level this summer my son opposed a pitcher who threw 127 pitches in a six inning game. By the fifth inning he threw nothing but breaking balls because he had lost so much velocity on his fastball. I know this has been debated to death, but I'd be having a serious discussion with any coach that used my 12 year-old that way.
I also know what it's like for a pitcher to be counted on to give a team a chance. My son was used a lot for three straight seasons, but his coach always had the decency to ask my son how he felt, and perhaps most importantly, to ask me if he was okay to go. Pitch count, as well as mechanics were both watched closely.
most schools when they have a dominate pitcher use them a lot... yes creager racked up innings the past 2 years but so did Dumler from Butler, his sr year had 68.2 innings and u gotta think that he pihttp://www.yappi.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3843973tched just as many his jr year, Josh Shea of Wayne pitched 109 total innings his jr and sr year, and there were a lot of pitchers last year that had 50+ innings on the season. Thats what being the ACE means, you pitch a lot more than other pitchers on your team, and arm problems doesnt necessarily come from overpitching, it comes from not working your arm good or getting warmed up enough... example Kevin Tolle of Northmont his jr year he didnt play basketball during the winter and ended up pitching good for the Bolts, but his sr year he decided to pay basketball which meant he didnt get to loosen up his arm as much which resulted in his arm problems he had at the beginning of his sr year. if he would have been healthy at the beginning that woulda took innings off of Creager
most schools when they have a dominate pitcher use them a lot... yes creager racked up innings the past 2 years but so did Dumler from Butler, his sr year had 68.2 innings and u gotta think that he pihttp://www.yappi.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3843973tched just as many his jr year, Josh Shea of Wayne pitched 109 total innings his jr and sr year, and there were a lot of pitchers last year that had 50+ innings on the season. Thats what being the ACE means, you pitch a lot more than other pitchers on your team, and arm problems doesnt necessarily come from overpitching, it comes from not working your arm good or getting warmed up enough... example Kevin Tolle of Northmont his jr year he didnt play basketball during the winter and ended up pitching good for the Bolts, but his sr year he decided to pay basketball which meant he didnt get to loosen up his arm as much which resulted in his arm problems he had at the beginning of his sr year. if he would have been healthy at the beginning that woulda took innings off of Creager... innings pitched doesnt mean u will have arm problems
most schools when they have a dominate pitcher use them a lot... yes creager racked up innings the past 2 years but so did Dumler from Butler, his sr year had 68.2 innings and u gotta think that he pihttp://www.yappi.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3843973tched just as many his jr year, Josh Shea of Wayne pitched 109 total innings his jr and sr year, and there were a lot of pitchers last year that had 50+ innings on the season. Thats what being the ACE means, you pitch a lot more than other pitchers on your team, and arm problems doesnt necessarily come from overpitching, it comes from not working your arm good or getting warmed up enough... example Kevin Tolle of Northmont his jr year he didnt play basketball during the winter and ended up pitching good for the Bolts, but his sr year he decided to pay basketball which meant he didnt get to loosen up his arm as much which resulted in his arm problems he had at the beginning of his sr year. if he would have been healthy at the beginning that woulda took innings off of Creager... innings pitched doesnt mean u will have arm problems
Josh Shea has not pitched his senior year yet. I think most of our problems had to do with pitch count, not innings pitched. There is no excuse for letting a pitcher go for 150 pitches. I have actually heard a coach say,"well 30 of those were changeups, so they don't count". What a moron. Glad to say he isn't coaching anymore.
I have actually heard a coach say,"well 30 of those were changeups, so they don't count". What a moron. Glad to say he isn't coaching anymore.
How can someone even coach when they don't know basic baseball math?? Everyone knows that 30 changeups actually equals 6 pitches in what's known as the "compromise formula". Where the pitches don't really count (officially), but the pitcher is throwing at approx. 80% velocity, so you compromise and count 20% of them.
At least that makes about as much sense as a lot of the other stuff I've heard!
How can someone even coach when they don't know basic baseball math?? Everyone knows that 30 changeups actually equals 6 pitches in what's known as the "compromise formula". Where the pitches don't really count (officially), but the pitcher is throwing at approx. 80% velocity, so you compromise and count 20% of them.
At least that makes about as much sense as a lot of the other stuff I've heard!
I've never heard that before... where did you get this info from?? I'm curious
A pitch is a pitch no matter whether a changeup, slider etc,,someone is always trying to re-invent the wheel. Whoever came up with that formula probably let a pitcher throw 200 pitches in a game or something. USA baseball has their own guidelines and seems to be a reasonable chart to follow. There are experts everyday coming up with their own philosophy. Every player is different and it's best to use a safe set of guidelines not some formula. I would rather be safe than sorry at the high school level. High School baseball is basically like spring training. The Major leagues are completely anal about pitch counts in the spring. Yet were going to let a High School pitcher throw 130-150 pitches. Oh,,40 of them were changeups.
A pitch is a pitch no matter whether a changeup, slider etc,,someone is always trying to re-invent the wheel. Whoever came up with that formula probably let a pitcher throw 200 pitches in a game or something. USA baseball has their own guidelines and seems to be a reasonable chart to follow. There are experts everyday coming up with their own philosophy. Every player is different and it's best to use a safe set of guidelines not some formula. I would rather be safe than sorry at the high school level. High School baseball is basically like spring training. The Major leagues are completely anal about pitch counts in the spring. Yet were going to let a High School pitcher throw 130-150 pitches. Oh,,40 of them were changeups.
I agree... it is not the end speed of the ball that should determine if it should be counted or what % of it. Technically, the arm speed and mechanics are "supposed" to be the same when we throw a "good" changeup as when we throw a fastball...it's just the grip is different. And if this is true... then the torque and deceleration of the arm is what takes its toll and that is why we should count changeups.
Maybe we should count curveballs as two pitches because they are supposed to be harder on the elbow? Multiply it all by the number of sliders and if you are near 100 perhaps you should stop. Try keeping that pitch count.
im not saying wayne will win the central at all. but they will be better then last year. Centerville lost there 2 best pitchers, fairmonts alex lilly has had arm problems, and northmont lost 8 seniors.. i still see these 3 teams in the top of the central. by i think Northmont can pull it out cuz Fairmonts alex lilly and corey jordan went head to head for 7 good innings at fifth third field last year. yes fairmont got the win 3-2. but lilly has arm problems this year. so im giving the edge to northmont.
Lilley has no arm problems. I saw him pitch last week during a workout and he looked as good as ever. Rumors of his demise were grossly exaggerated.
How can someone even coach when they don't know basic baseball math?? Everyone knows that 30 changeups actually equals 6 pitches in what's known as the "compromise formula". Where the pitches don't really count (officially), but the pitcher is throwing at approx. 80% velocity, so you compromise and count 20% of them.
At least that makes about as much sense as a lot of the other stuff I've heard!
I thought the last sentence would bring some clarity to this, but I guess I should have spelled it out:
I thought the last sentence would bring some clarity to this, but I guess I should have spelled it out:
t-o-u-g-u-e i-n c-h-e-e-k
If you are willing to spell it out, at least spell it correctly. Haha! I would love to meet the coach who said change ups don't count towards pitch count. That is the most absurd baseball comment I have ever read.
If you are willing to spell it out, at least spell it correctly. Haha! I would love to meet the coach who said change ups don't count towards pitch count. That is the most absurd baseball comment I have ever read.
He used to be the pitching coach for one of the largest D1 schools in the Dayton area. He was not retained for the 2010 season.
The fact that you caught that (and use puncuation) suggests you're not one of the high school students who post on here
I guess that's a sad commentary on the grammar skills of our high school students. You still need to work on your spelling, as you misspelled punctuation.
I guess that's a sad commentary on the grammar skills of our high school students. You still need to work on your spelling, as you misspelled punctuation.
That's too funny. He couldn't spell relentless, either.
He used to be the pitching coach for one of the largest D1 schools in the Dayton area. He was not retained for the 2010 season.
The father of the modern day "compromise formula" was not retained? I was going to start using it. I watched Al Leiter on baseball network demonstrating how to throw all pitches, curves, fastballs, and changeups,,etc. He basically proved that a pitch is a pitch no matter what kind.
Where do they find these rocket scientist's ?? Sounds like that D1 school will benefit from his departure. From rumors during summer baseball one particular D1 school was in total chaos, ( Lazy Head Coach getting advise and coaching from bad sources )
You still need to work on your spelling, as you misspelled punctuation.
Wow, your two for two. What are you...the English teacher! Let's expose the young lads to a bit more learning so they at least get something of value from this thread. Go ahead....make it three for three.
By the way amorousfan2008, the "E" key is broken on my keyboard so I had to spell it that way
Hey for that kid throwing 150 pitches. let's add in the warm up pitches thrown in between innings and the 30 or so warm up pitches thrown before the game and the kid has thrown +200 pitches in that game. Now take in effect the ortopedic doctors who say that there are only so many pitches in each pitchers arm ( that number will fluctuate from pitcher to pitcher) but at some point all pitchers reach that limit and the kid appears to be taking a pretty big risk of reaching that number way too soon in his carear for me!!!!!
Hey for that kid throwing 150 pitches. let's add in the warm up pitches thrown in between innings and the 30 or so warm up pitches thrown before the game and the kid has thrown +200 pitches in that game. Now take in effect the ortopedic doctors who say that there are only so many pitches in each pitchers arm ( that number will fluctuate from pitcher to pitcher) but at some point all pitchers reach that limit and the kid appears to be taking a pretty big risk of reaching that number way too soon in his carear for me!!!!!
The good thing for this pitcher is that he graduated and got away from his HS coach. His college coaches hopefully will protect him a bit more.
Wow, your two for two. What are you...the English teacher! Let's expose the young lads to a bit more learning so they at least get something of value from this thread. Go ahead....make it three for three.
By the way amorousfan2008, the "E" key is broken on my keyboard so I had to spell it that way
ur "E" key is broken yet u have 2 other "e" in ur name???
A team to watch out for the next few years is Fairborn. They have one of the best soph LH pitchers in the state, and an excellent young talented team with a freshmen Jason Newsome who is also going to make some noise. The last two years have seen steady improvement and their is finally a consistency with a coach and they are well coached. Look for them to be improved this year and look out the next few years.
Fairborn? Brad Hall? HAHA. Hall is decent and that's on a good day. Fairborn is not a team to watch. They will not do very good in the competitive GWOC South.
A somber 4th place finish is my prediction
Mark it down within 2 years they will challenge Springboro within two years. As a fan I hope you doubt them becausse they will continue to improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballplayer10
Fairborn? Brad Hall? HAHA. Hall is decent and that's on a good day. Fairborn is not a team to watch. They will not do very good in the competitive GWOC South.
A somber 4th place finish is my prediction
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