Why not just change the dimensions of the fields, restrict the bats (-9 or -7), move the mound back and widen the bases and be more like other leagues. You can still have the same community type atmosphere that Yappi wants, just make the game the same, just the playing levels would be different.
I don't see a reason parents would complain about that. Even though I know parents will always find something to complain about.
Just as info with regard to shear numbers, in the SWOL 2010 season, it stands as follows: 10U, 49 teams, 11u, 66 teams, and 12U, 84 teams.
I have been told that this indeed is the largest league in the US, but I can not confirm that or deny it either.
However, I can easily agree that here in this area select/travel is by far in the lead with numbers with regard to outstanding LL programs thoughout as well as many fine Rec leagues as well.
In closing, I too enjoy watching every level of play and have been known to just stop and watch a game that I just happened upon. It's just the love of the game and a true fan, hence boring I can't agree with that. JMHO
Why not just change the dimensions of the fields, restrict the bats (-9 or -7), move the mound back and widen the bases and be more like other leagues. You can still have the same community type atmosphere that Yappi wants, just make the game the same, just the playing levels would be different.
I don't see a reason parents would complain about that. Even though I know parents will always find something to complain about.
This is more productive. Every year we have discussions about how to improve Little League. I personally would love to get rid of the composite bats. I believe that college is doing away with them. High school and all levels below them should follow that too.
I personally have a problem with the new cutoff date for Little League. They changed it to align themselves with other leagues and I thought it was a huge mistake. Kids today are bigger and stronger and having a kid who is 13 years old most of the season playing on the small fields with composite bats is a mistake.
The problem with the field dimensions is that many of them are already cramped in tiny spaces that cannot be changed.
It was a simple point and you made it confusing. A large majority of parents have no interest in their kids playing travel baseball. Simple as that. Nothing else. They prefer their kids play rec league baseball or no baseball at all. Travel baseball is not an option. Simple. Nothing else to it.
Now the reason why I said that, the goal should be to increase participation and that is what Little League attempts to do as well as other rec leagues. Select baseball will not bring in new people. Very simple point and I find it very difficult to believe that you are going to argue otherwise.
Absolutely not. When someone claims that Little League is boring, the reality is that most people feel baseball itself is boring. I've played, coached, and watched both travel and Little League. The differences are minor and I feel both are exciting when you are involved. The beauty of baseball is it's tradition and that gets lost on people new to the game.
I am not arguing for or against anything as far as LL or travel ball is concerned with you. I am saying that what you posted about parents/players not being interested in travel ball is plain incorrect. That is my opinion but as far as southwest Ohio is concerned saying anything different shows ignorance for what is happening down here. I think what you are posting is showing that you also do not understand where travel ball has gone.
The SWOL is made up of different divisions that allow different level teams to participate. ALl levels of players and teams are represented by the hundreds of teams that play in that league. From the teams that compete Nationally and travel all the time to the "rec level" team that plays 20-30 games in a summer agisnt teams from ostly their areas. The SWOL is pushing other rec leagues out of existence becasue parents have bought into the idea that their kids must play in that league to be able to compete. We don't have LL in Cinci we have something ccalled Knothole instead but that is even starting to mimic the SWOL.
Now if you go back and read my posts directed to Woody in this thread you will see that I was positive on the LL experience vs travel ball and do not feel that parents need to get their kids involved in the early years when LL can be a staple in their baseball experience. Kids stop playing baseball when they start getting cut from thier high school teams. That is a fact. The participation in the travel ball leagues begins decreasing at the age that kids start getting cut from their hgih school teams. What EVERYBODY who loves baseball should be advocating is what is the best way for kids to develop themselves so that they can have fun, stay interested int eh game, play the game of baseball and develop their game to give them the best chance to make their high school team at early ages. The answer to that iIMHO is a combination of the two depending on what the kid wants to do.
Then lets rephrase it then. LL is not as much fun for my 11 year as travel is. Not even close. He loves baseball and watches LL but feels it is much more boring than travel. I love watching LLWS but I know that Chula Vista would have a harder time competing under normal rules. That team was built from the local ground up to compete in LL. They finished the season ranked 25th in the nation according to travelballselect.com which ranks ALL teams in the country. Now i dont feel baseball is boring, but I have watched boring games if that makes sense. I feel LL hampers developement because of so much modification. There were over 400 teams in COYBL alone and 50 in my 11u division. That type of participation shows that baseball is not dead at all but still very popular.
Then lets rephrase it then. LL is not as much fun for my 11 year as travel is. Not even close. He loves baseball and watches LL but feels it is much more boring than travel. I love watching LLWS but I know that Chula Vista would have a harder time competing under normal rules. That team was built from the local ground up to compete in LL. They finished the season ranked 25th in the nation according to travelballselect.com which ranks ALL teams in the country. Now i dont feel baseball is boring, but I have watched boring games if that makes sense. I feel LL hampers developement because of so much modification. There were over 400 teams in COYBL alone and 50 in my 11u division. That type of participation shows that baseball is not dead at all but still very popular.
Yes what yu say makes sense. I have also watched boring baseball games, football games and basketball games. In fact the lower the level of play the more boring it gets. I think whatever league a kid is playing in learning the fundamentals of the game at the earliest ages is the biggest thing. Good coaching with the right attitude at the early ages is the biggest part of that. I think all players who want to play in high school and beyond should be exposed to travel ball so that they play the best competition available. I wouldn;t want to walk into my first high school tryout and that is the first time I compete against the travel ball teams. What I do not agree with is that the rules difference in LL stops a kid from developing. It just keeps them from experiencing the things that are not part of the LL game. They will learn that in the years afer LL. SO again I say it is up to the kid and/or player and neither is the wrong way to go. That is what I have been primarily saying.
I am not arguing for or against anything as far as LL or travel ball is concerned with you. I am saying that what you posted about parents/players not being interested in travel ball is plain incorrect.
I still disagree with you about parents and travel baseball. I would say the same thing about travel basketball, and even competitive cheerleading. Most people just don't want to follow their kid(s) around to competitions all over a region. I think the problem is that you are looking at the statement from a narrow viewpoint of parents of kids who have played competitive baseball for a number of years. I'm talking about ALL the parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMHO
That is my opinion but as far as southwest Ohio is concerned saying anything different shows ignorance for what is happening down here. I think what you are posting is showing that you also do not understand where travel ball has gone.
The SWOL is made up of different divisions that allow different level teams to participate. ALl levels of players and teams are represented by the hundreds of teams that play in that league. From the teams that compete Nationally and travel all the time to the "rec level" team that plays 20-30 games in a summer agisnt teams from ostly their areas. The SWOL is pushing other rec leagues out of existence becasue parents have bought into the idea that their kids must play in that league to be able to compete. We don't have LL in Cinci we have something ccalled Knothole instead but that is even starting to mimic the SWOL.
Woody is from Texas. The whole argument I have made is big picture. You are right, I am ignorant of SWO youth baseball but it was brought up as an example of travel baseball. Sounds to me like it's really a hybrid of rec and travel ball so it really shouldn't have been in the discussion of LL vs Select.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMHO
Now if you go back and read my posts directed to Woody in this thread you will see that I was positive on the LL experience vs travel ball and do not feel that parents need to get their kids involved in the early years when LL can be a staple in their baseball experience. Kids stop playing baseball when they start getting cut from thier high school teams. That is a fact. The participation in the travel ball leagues begins decreasing at the age that kids start getting cut from their hgih school teams. What EVERYBODY who loves baseball should be advocating is what is the best way for kids to develop themselves so that they can have fun, stay interested int eh game, play the game of baseball and develop their game to give them the best chance to make their high school team at early ages. The answer to that iIMHO is a combination of the two depending on what the kid wants to do.
While I agree with almost everything you posted in this quote, my experience is that kids start quitting baseball the first year after they start playing which could be as young as 7 years old because they find other sports they enjoy or they just don't play sports any longer.
So this question is purely out of interest to how different our baseball leagues appear to be, what is the percentage of kids that play baseball in SWO out of any given grade at a school? Up here, we have 30 out of 90 playing this past season (5th grade). We've had probably 25 more that have played at some point in the past but did not come out this past season. That means that 33% played this year and 60% have played at least one year. So what percentage of 5th graders in your community played this past season?
I still disagree with you about parents and travel baseball. I would say the same thing about travel basketball, and even competitive cheerleading. Most people just don't want to follow their kid(s) around to competitions all over a region. I think the problem is that you are looking at the statement from a narrow viewpoint of parents of kids who have played competitive baseball for a number of years. I'm talking about ALL the parents.
Woody is from Texas. The whole argument I have made is big picture. You are right, I am ignorant of SWO youth baseball but it was brought up as an example of travel baseball. Sounds to me like it's really a hybrid of rec and travel ball so it really shouldn't have been in the discussion of LL vs Select.
While I agree with almost everything you posted in this quote, my experience is that kids start quitting baseball the first year after they start playing which could be as young as 7 years old because they find other sports they enjoy or they just don't play sports any longer.
So this question is purely out of interest to how different our baseball leagues appear to be, what is the percentage of kids that play baseball in SWO out of any given grade at a school? Up here, we have 30 out of 90 playing this past season (5th grade). We've had probably 25 more that have played at some point in the past but did not come out this past season or prior seasons. So what percentage of 5th graders in your community played this past season?
I really can not answer your question without a guess. But here dgoes. EWhen my kids were in 5th grade there were a couple who layed travel ball outside of the area, an entire travle ball team made up of kids in the 5th grade, and an entire team that played school ball as well as knothole so I would say as a % it would be atleast 80% of the kids played some type of baseball.
I agree kids start quitting baseball the year after they start but that is how all sports are aren't they?
Hybrid of rec/travel - Yes - that is what I meant by travel ball is becoming money ball as the organizers have gone into the making of money which involves getting as many involved as possible from providing a true "select" environment for the so called advanced players. You could say that LL/rec is becoming part of select and be accurate.
As far as the parents are concerned - you hit it on the head howvever once the parents buy into the notion that if their kid is going to have a chance to compete for a spot on a high school team they MUST be involved in travel ball ( no matter what the sport, cheerleading, band, plays, etc.) they will do whatever they think is necessary. That is how most parents are. Travel sports has been successful in getting parents to believe they must be involved in those sports or their kids will fall behind. That is why my argument is where it is with travel baseball -vs- LL baseball. I don't see anythign wrong with being involved with LL up throug the 12 year old and of course that involves the LLWS but after that I thin it is important to be involved in some form of travel ball for the development of the kid that wants to continue on playing baseball.
There is a place for both rec and travel ball. The players that are skilled enough to play travel ball should do that to be challenged. The players not ready for that should play rec ball so they are not overwhelmed. Both players have needs and putting them together hurts both. They will both lose interest and find something else to do if bored. I see it happen every year!!!
I can only comment on WSLL because that is what I know. We have 9 major teams and to my knowledge all but one team is coached/managed by a guy that played, minimally, HS baseball. Our teams for the most part practice or play 6 days a week and at the end of the all-star season my son had played over 55 games from april to august. Oh it cost me 135.00 total and the park is 5 minutes from my house.
Further my oldest son just finished his collegiate playing career. From the same WSLL program in my oldest son's age group there were the following: 4 DI scholarship players, 2 DII scholarship players and a NAIA scholarship player. Seven kids from a total of maybe 35-40 kids in his age group. This does not include kids playing at a lower collegiate level. Not too shabby for a rec league.
I can only comment on WSLL because that is what I know. We have 9 major teams and to my knowledge all but one team is coached/managed by a guy that played, minimally, HS baseball. Our teams for the most part practice or play 6 days a week and at the end of the all-star season my son had played over 55 games from april to august. Oh it cost me 135.00 total and the park is 5 minutes from my house.
Further my oldest son just finished his collegiate playing career. From the same WSLL program in my oldest son's age group there were the following: 4 DI scholarship players, 2 DII scholarship players and a NAIA scholarship player. Seven kids from a total of maybe 35-40 kids in his age group. This does not include kids playing at a lower collegiate level. Not too shabby for a rec league.
You and your boys are very fortunate to have WSLL in your backyard. They are by far the best LL organization in the state, but they are the exception. After spending several years coaching and being on the board of our local LL, which is about an hour from you, it was clearly not for us after age 10. We went to select and have no regrets. I am sure if we had WSLL to be a part of, things might have been different.
I can only comment on WSLL because that is what I know. We have 9 major teams and to my knowledge all but one team is coached/managed by a guy that played, minimally, HS baseball. Our teams for the most part practice or play 6 days a week and at the end of the all-star season my son had played over 55 games from april to august. Oh it cost me 135.00 total and the park is 5 minutes from my house.
Further my oldest son just finished his collegiate playing career. From the same WSLL program in my oldest son's age group there were the following: 4 DI scholarship players, 2 DII scholarship players and a NAIA scholarship player. Seven kids from a total of maybe 35-40 kids in his age group. This does not include kids playing at a lower collegiate level. Not too shabby for a rec league.
You are spoiled GC. You have the best LL around and most of those players are travel ball quality. We have not had 1 single player that came through our rec league and made it to college. All players that go to college from our area are from travel teams. I think maybe you are the Exception and our parts of the state are the rule.
I'm not sure we're the best. North Canton, Avon and Mt.Vernon are just a few comparable LLs to WSLL but I will say our league is very competitive which has it good and bad points. My point is just that there is an equal amount of poor travel play.
Just for the sake of discussion, these are the public schools that have played for the state championship in D1 & D2 for the last 20 years:
Division 1: Little League Affiliated
2001 Maumee
1999 Cuyahoga Falls
1997 Hamilton
1996 Canton GlenOak
1995 Canton GlenOak
1994 Massillon Washington
1993 Barberton
1992 Defiance
1992 North Canton Hoover
1991 Youngstown Boardman
1990 Cuyahoga Falls
Not Little League Affiliated -or- Not Sure
2009 Pickerington North
2007 Lakota West
2007 Mentor
2006 Strongsville
2006 Olentangy
2005 Toledo Start
2004 Mentor
2003 Milford
2002 Milford
2001 Dublin Coffman
2000 Toledo Start
1998 Dublin Scioto
1997 Toledo Start
1996 Tiffin Columbian
1994 Toledo Start
1991 Fairfield
1990 Upper Arlington
Division 2: Little League Affiliated
2007 Canfield
2004 Steubenville
2002 Tallmadge
2001 Tallmadge
2000 Washington Court House
2000 Tallmadge
1996 Tallmadge
1992 Elyria West
1990 Steubenville
Not Little League Affiliated -or- Not Sure
2008 Canal Winchester
2007 Kenton Ridge
2005 Hebron Lakewood
2002 Richmond Edison
1999 Rocky River
1998 Rocky River
1995 Wauseon
1995 St Paris Graham
1994 Hebron Lakewood
1994 Campbell Memorial
1993 Hebron Lakewood
1992 Alliance Marlington - Hot Stove
I didn't include private schools because it's much tougher to figure out their feeders. For example, Walsh has several kids on their team from Tallmadge and Cuyahoga Falls. But they also have kids from other areas much further away.
Yappi, Fairfield is little league affiliated, they have the FYBA, where my boys played.
We moved to SWOL due to some bad experiences with coaching and favoritism. So far, the SWOL has been no better, possibly worse. But now my son feels that he must play select ball and little league/knothole wouldn't suffice. I'd be willing to drive him over to the WSLL actually, it's only 20 minutes from me. I'm considering it for my 5 yo who just played t-ball this year, although I'm not clear as to whether there's a geographic requirement or not, I'm guessing no as my oldest has been recruited my Millville's LL.
I'm a parent who will not put my young son on a travel team. My middle boy could play at the national level, but I will not even have him try out. He's 11, will play 11U next year (but turn 12 in May.) I see no reason for us to do that at this point. He's playing in the SWOL and I'm not even sure I'm happy about that. It's a lot of money and time.
Another issue is that the SWOL does suck a lot of the talent out of LL. So the kids that stay have little good competition, at least that's how it seemed to work when we were there.
Another concern is what happens to talented boys with no money? Their parents can't afford the high fees of the SWOL, and those individual teams can't give scholarships. I'm not sure if FYBA gives scholarships or not, but their fees were extremely reasonable. There have to be lots of talented kids whose families aren't rolling in money. I have friends like this who calculate the fees along with the cost of the shoes and the glove and determine they can't afford it, and that's for little league.
boysmom- Fairfield is not LL nor is Millville and yes bounderies would be an issue to play at WSLL if you live in FF. If you you live in the Township East Hamilton is LL, that would be a possibility if you are lookink for a LL program
I'm confused, h I thought that's what we played Little League when we werein Fairfield. But I could have been wrong, what makes a club little league? I know that my boys played Cal Ripken All Stars, is that something different?
We live in West Chester Township now, so I don't know where we could play, I know that West Chester has a Little League now, or possibly it's Liberty Township, I have no idea really. I also know that the other little leagues in the Hamilton area (Millville, Lindenwald) are suffering from declining participation, so I wouldn't see them as a great option.
Whatever team you and your sons decide to play on, it really helps if he enjoys his team, his coach, and the whole experience.
There's nothing worse than getting on a VERY competitive travel team (especially when they aren't even in h.s. yet) and, perhaps, sitting the bench more than you think he should, playing with kids who are selfish players rather than team players, having to deal with obnoxious parents who think their kid is the best kid on the team, traveling WAY too much, etc.
If you and your kid have a bad experience, he might be tempted to quit baseball altogether and this can all be avoided if he can find a team that's competitive while still letting the kid look forward to playing. In other words, there still has to be a fun element to it. I've seen kids who maybe didn't play on the most competitive travel teams while they were prehigh school - however, they still were good enough players that they had a good h.s. season, still loved baseball and ended up playing in college. If they get burned out somewhere along the line, they'll just quit. And as a parent, you hate to see that happen. And it doesn't have to.
Not sure about this but I think travel players might be better because, in general, the better players decide to play travel baseball.
Are the travel kids typically 2 years better than the LL players? Probably, but they were better players to begin with. The tougher question is would the same kid be 2 years better in travel v. LL? I don't think so.
Whatever team you and your sons decide to play on, it really helps if he enjoys his team, his coach, and the whole experience.
There's nothing worse than getting on a VERY competitive travel team (especially when they aren't even in h.s. yet) and, perhaps, sitting the bench more than you think he should, playing with kids who are selfish players rather than team players, having to deal with obnoxious parents who think their kid is the best kid on the team, traveling WAY too much, etc.
If you and your kid have a bad experience, he might be tempted to quit baseball altogether and this can all be avoided if he can find a team that's competitive while still letting the kid look forward to playing. In other words, there still has to be a fun element to it. I've seen kids who maybe didn't play on the most competitive travel teams while they were prehigh school - however, they still were good enough players that they had a good h.s. season, still loved baseball and ended up playing in college. If they get burned out somewhere along the line, they'll just quit. And as a parent, you hate to see that happen. And it doesn't have to.
I think one criteria everyone should follow is each players needs to be on a team where they play significant innings. Sitting on the bench creates an atmosphere that is not fun for the player and parents and nobody gets better sitting on the bench. I don't buy that stuff about it is better to sit on the bench and "practice" with better players. This is especially true for younger guys becaue you just never know who is going to grow into a very good baseball player as they mature.
Not sure about this but I think travel players might be better because, in general, the better players decide to play travel baseball.
Are the travel kids typically 2 years better than the LL players? Probably, but they were better players to begin with. The tougher question is would the same kid be 2 years better in travel v. LL? I don't think so.
A generalization that travel players are better or LL players are better is incorrect. THere are very good players in both. One thing that makes it appear that some younger travel players are better is that they have been exposed to more baseball situations than other players their age becasue they play more games and know how to react to different situations, but that comes with time and experience with all players. Additionally, I think some younger players also practice/work on thier game more at a younger age again which gives the appearance at a younger age that they are better players. However it all comes out in the wash as players mature and are exposed to the game situations that they haven't experienced in their baseball carears yet.
I think one criteria everyone should follow is each players needs to be on a team where they play significant innings. Sitting on the bench creates an atmosphere that is not fun for the player and parents and nobody gets better sitting on the bench. I don't buy that stuff about it is better to sit on the bench and "practice" with better players. This is especially true for younger guys becaue you just never know who is going to grow into a very good baseball player as they mature.
I couldn't agree more! And, especially for the younger guys, sitting on the bench is where they will lose interest and their enthusiasm for the game.
And, like you said, the kid who is sitting the bench at a younger age may very well be the better player in the long run - but he needs the chance to develop and grow, which is only done by getting significant innings of playing time.
Just because someone's a coach doesn't mean he's necessarily an authority on who's the better ballplayer - this is especially hard to determine at the younger ages. Also, the coach may have various parents whispering in his ear, convincing him to play THEIR son over other players. This is why a kid needs to play on a team where he'll get significant playing time and the coach tries his best to look at things with an unbiased eye. Better to play on a Little League team where the player feels like part of the team than a Select team where he's just an "extra", sitting the bench. But, either way, try and get a team that's still competitive.
A generalization that travel players are better or LL players are better is incorrect. THere are very good players in both. One thing that makes it appear that some younger travel players are better is that they have been exposed to more baseball situations than other players their age becasue they play more games and know how to react to different situations, but that comes with time and experience with all players. Additionally, I think some younger players also practice/work on thier game more at a younger age again which gives the appearance at a younger age that they are better players. However it all comes out in the wash as players mature and are exposed to the game situations that they haven't experienced in their baseball carears yet.
The travel teams in my neck of the woods watch the LL games to see if there is anyone they want for their travel teams. There are some good LL players that chose not to play travel. There are a few that chose to do both. However, most of the stronger players go play travel in my town.
We lose very few kids at WSLL to travel ball. Our kids look forward to competing against their friends and then having the oppurtunity to play for an all-star team.
I watched 2 swol teams last season that could not catch a fly ball anywhere on the field at the age of 13.
We lose very few kids at WSLL to travel ball. Our kids look forward to competing against their friends and then having the oppurtunity to play for an all-star team.
I watched 2 swol teams last season that could not catch a fly ball anywhere on the field at the age of 13.
Come GCPRO - you know that isn't representative of most SWOL teams at that age - any more than watching a bad LL team play and implying that is how it is in LL. Why is it that travel ball guys can't give credit to the positives of LL and LL guys can't give credit to the positives of travel ball?
I'm just calling them as I saw them. I agree but tire of the LL kids can't walk and chew gum. I know that great baseball can be played in the swol, no different than other affiliation in any other part of the country.
I was hired by an independent non-profit to hang on yappi and keep an eye on all things Heat related.
I think I need a similar job. Mrs. Ones won't let me retire before she does. My plans.........a professional moderator/golf course sampler/sports watcher/cook. Do ya' think she'll go for it?
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