CCS West Catholic League

[consumerman]

Here are the final regular season records of the West Catholic League

Bellarmine Prep (San Jose, CA) 5 1 0 83% 9 1 0 90%
Serra (San Mateo, CA) 4 2 0 67% 7 3 0 70%
Valley Christian (San Jose, CA) 3 2 1 58% 7 2 1 75%
Mitty (San Jose, CA) 3 3 0 50% 7 3 0 70%
Riordan (San Francisco, CA) 2 3 1 42% 6 3 1 65%
St. Francis (Mountain View, CA) 2 3 1 42% 4 4 2 50%
St. Ignatius (San Francisco, CA) 0 5 1 8% 4 5 1 45%



in previous posts I have also included Sacred Heart, a former WCAL football league member who is rejoining the league next year, and had several games against WCAL teams this year

the non-league record of the league (excluding Sacred Heart) is 27-2-1

and include a loss by Serra to DLS and a tie by St Francis with 9-0-1 Los Gatos and a loss to 9-1 St Marys of Stockton by St Francis 20-13

also Riordan benefiteed from a forfeit win, they lost on the field 21-14 to a washington catholic power, who ended up forfeiting all their games

[consumerman]

5 of those 7 teams made the CCS playoffs

4 in the "open" division

and 1 in the "medium" division

Serra, which just beat previously undefeated Bellarmine, now has a rematch with the Bells

they are considered co-favorites to win the open division

Mitty gets 9-1 Oak Grove (lone loss was to WCAL member St Francis) incidentally I went to Oak Grove my freshman and sophomore years in high school. My freshman year, Oak Grove had its first ever winning season, going 10-0 and being ranked #2 in the large CCS (12 leagues). They beat section #1 and national #10 Saratoga 28-18 in the first round, but lost in the next round to eventual champion Leland. In the final, Leland beat Riordan coached by future UCLA head coach Bob Toledo

Valley Christian gets 8-2 Gilroy while RIordan plays in the medium division

[consumerman]

Bellarmine went 9-1 and its lone loss was to that (according to concha) cupcake Serra

Valley Christian went 7-2-1 and its worst game was a loss to that cupcake Serra, 39-22, their only other loss was to Bellarmine 20-14

Serra also beat McQueen (Reno) 37-13, McQueen is 11-1

Serra beat Gilroy 8-2, 52-31

Serra beat Buchanana 7-4, 41-7

ya that Serra is a real cupcake

[concha]

Sorry to interrupt your conversation with yourself, but could you please, please tell us the tales of mighty 4-4-2 St. Francis and 6-3-1 (5-4-1 on the filed...thanks!) Riordan. You know, the two other teams that have dropped Ls on mighty Serra?

[consumerman]

Sorry to interrupt your conversation with yourself, but could you please, please tell us the tales of mighty 4-4-2 St. Francis and 6-3-1 Riordan. You know, the two other teams that have dropped Ls on mighty Serra?

it is a very competitive league

as evidenced by their 27-2-1 non-league record

which includes a loss to DLS, a loss to a 9-1 team by 7 and a tie with a 9-0-1 team

can you read??


their performance overall is less than expectations but they did put a whippingon an 11-1 team, did beat a state #9 team that was 9-0 and handed CCS power Valley Christian a 17 point shellacking

if you understood a REAL competitive league from team 1 through team 7, not St X and the 3 dwarfs, you would get it

same ol concha

never gives any team credit for anything

[concha]

Bellarmine went 9-1 and its lone loss was to that (according to concha) cupcake Serra

Valley Christian went 7-2-1 and its worst game was a loss to that cupcake Serra, 39-22, their only other loss was to Bellarmine 20-14

Serra also beat McQueen (Reno) 37-13, McQueen is 11-1

Serra beat Gilroy 8-2, 52-31

Serra beat Buchanana 7-4, 41-7

ya that Serra is a real cupcake

And Serra lost to 4-4-2 St. Francis and 5-4-1 Riordan (20-3, ouch). They must have forgotten to ask Francis to lighten up.

[consumerman]

And Serra lost to 4-4-2 St. Francis and 5-4-1 Riordan (20-3, ouch). They must have forgotten to ask Francis to lighten up.

st francis was THE CCS power (along with Bellarmine) for many years, probably the mid seventies until the mid 90s when Coach Calcagno retired

they held DLS to their lowest offensive outputs during the streak, losing 21-0 in 1998 and 14-0 in 2002, I believe

that WAS a clever line about the lancers to lighten up

[concha]

same ol concha

never gives any team credit for anything

I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?

[consumerman]

DLS has been on-off rumored to join the WCAL for many years

the problem is that the WCAL is in the CCS, while DLS is in the NCS

if DLS were to join that league, it would be one of the premier leagues in the state, and possibly the nation

but the chance of that is like 2%

[consumerman]

I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?

well I will ask you this without trying to 1 up each other

what do you think of the WCAL, overall and in terms of quality and quantity

its competitiveness within the league and its dominace out of the league 27-2-1

and I will remind you that Sacred heart - San Francisco, a WCAL football team when I was in high school, will be rejoining the league next year and will be on par with their arch rival St Ignatius, which was winless in league and undefeated out of league

[consumerman]

I give them credit for beating 6 teams that people in NorCal might about and the team from Reno, who I am sure are highly regarded in football crazy Western Nevada.


I also give them credit for losing to 4-4-2 St. Francis and getting on the board with three points against 5-4-1 Riordan.

Happy now?

it is crazy they beat the #1 and #3 teams in the league and lost to the #5 and #6 teams in league

[consumerman]

St Francis 2007

vs Oak Grove 9-1, won 31-15
vs. South City 3-7, won 21-10
vs. Los Gatos, 9-0-1, tied 3-3
vs. St Mary's 9-1, lost 20-13

league
vs Serra 7-3, won 13-10
vs Bellarmine 9-1, lost 21-16
vs Valley Christian, 7-2-1, lost 36-8
vs St Ignatius, 4-5-1, won 33-0
vs Riordan 6-3-1, tied 21-21
vs Mitty, 7-3 lost 24-18

three (of 4) non league games with opponents records 27-2-1, went 1-1-1
one non league game vs . 3-7 team, won 21-10
6 league games 40-16-3, went 2-3-1

[concha]

well I will ask you this without trying to 1 up each other

what do you think of the WCAL, overall and in terms of quality and quantity



It is hard to judge.

Most of their play is local and against teams I've never heard of or heard much about apart from DLS.

And you need to keep in mind that when I judge, I judge from a GCL perspective. I did a quick look and the GCL was about 24-6 against non-league opponents this year. I believe 22 of these games were against teams with winning records (excl. games versus the GCL). Fifteen or sixteen of the games were versus teams with 2 or fewer losses.

X went 8-0 versus teams with a combined 60-15 record (excl. the X result)

Moe went 6-2 versus comp that was 51-21-1.

LaSalle was 4-3 versus comp that was 49-16.

Elder had the weakest. They went 6-1 against comp that went 29-34.


Included in the above competitors are many highly regarded teams like Colerain, DeMatha, Glenville, Trinity (KY), Ignatius (2x), Independence (NC), Brother Rice (MI) and other respected Ohio opponents like Sycamore (9-1) and Centerville (9-1, alma mater of Kirk Herbstriet and AJ Hawk). The numbers of state titles and national or regional poll appearances by GCL competitors is nuts.

There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten. Last I checked, the GCL had four of the top five spots nationally. And remember, the "cal" in calpreps stands for California.

Update: Here is the latest top 10 SoS per calpreps. Love or hate'em...

1 St. Xavier (Cincinnati, OH)
2 Archbishop Moeller (Cincinnati, OH)
3 La Salle (Cincinnati, OH)
4 St. Edward (Lakewood, OH)
5 East St. John (Reserve, LA)
6 Elder (Cincinnati, OH)
7 Servite (Anaheim, CA)
8 Leander (TX)
9 McNeil (Austin, TX)
10 St. Ignatius (Cleveland, OH)

Of the top 25 SoS ratings, Ohio had 8 and Texas and California 6 each. California's were broken down by 4 Southern Section and 2 Central Coast teams. Ohio's were also weighted to the top of the rankings.

[skyway28]

It is hard to judge.

Most of their play is local and against teams I've never heard of or heard much about apart from DLS.

And you need to keep in mind that when I judge, I judge from a GCL perspective. I did a quick look and the GCL was about 24-6 against non-league opponents this year. I believe 22 of these games were against teams with winning records (excl. games versus the GCL). Fifteen or sixteen of the games were versus teams with 2 or fewer losses.

X went 8-0 versus teams with a combined 60-15 record (excl. the X result)

Moe went 6-2 versus comp that was 51-21-1.

LaSalle was 4-3 versus comp that was 49-16.

Elder had the weakest. They went 6-1 against comp that went 29-34.


Included in the above competitors are many highly regarded teams like Colerain, DeMatha, Glenville, Trinity (KY), Ignatius (2x), Independence (NC), Brother Rice (MI) and other respected Ohio opponents like Sycamore (9-1) and Centerville (9-1, alma mater of Kirk Herbstriet and AJ Hawk). The numbers of state titles and national or regional poll appearances by GCL competitors is nuts.

There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten. Last I checked, the GCL had four of the top five spots nationally. And remember, the "cal" in calpreps stands for California.

Update: Here is the latest top 10 SoS per calpreps. Love or hate'em...

1 St. Xavier (Cincinnati, OH)
2 Archbishop Moeller (Cincinnati, OH)
3 La Salle (Cincinnati, OH)
4 St. Edward (Lakewood, OH)
5 East St. John (Reserve, LA)
6 Elder (Cincinnati, OH)
7 Servite (Anaheim, CA)
8 Leander (TX)
9 McNeil (Austin, TX)
10 St. Ignatius (Cleveland, OH)

Of the top 25 SoS ratings, Ohio had 8 and Texas and California 6 each. California's were broken down by 4 Southern Section and 2 Central Coast teams. Ohio's were also weighted to the top of the rankings.


Ughh. And people wonder why I spend so much time working to expose the fallacies of a computer system that ranks teams on a national basis. Otherwise intelligent people put great stock into that stuff.

"There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten."

What is your hypothesis for why the supposedly objective computer comes to the conclusions about Ohio teams?

[concha]

Ughh. And people wonder why I spend so much time working to expose the fallacies of a computer system that ranks teams on a national basis. Otherwise intelligent people put great stock into that stuff.

"There is a reason why the calpreps computer typically has at least 2 or 3 GCL teams' strength of schedule in the national top ten."

What is your hypothesis for why the supposedly objective computer comes to the conclusions about Ohio teams?

It is not just the computer. That is a major part of the point. In my experience pollsters are of the same opinion regarding the schedules of teams like St. X. I don't think the calpreps model arriving at the same conclusion is a coincidence.

Ohio football is highly regarded. I don't think that is argued. Its top teams interplay much more than in other highly regarded states. Games between the likes of St. Xavier, Elder, Moe, Colerain, Ignatius, St. Edward, McKinley, Massillon and others are all commonplace in Ohio. Much of it has to do with the Harbin system. Many teams refuse to play teams like the Big Catholics and hurt their chances for the post-season, so the Catholic powers have to play one another and seek out-of-state competition. Lakeland, Warren Central, DeMatha, Trinity, Independence, DLS, Bethlehem Catholic, Louisville St. X, Byrnes and others have all been faced just by the GCL in recent years.

When the top programs from a top state play one another more frequently than those in other states, and play out-of-state powers also, it only stands to reason that their strength of schedule will be considered very highly.

Example: X has played 8 games against non-league competition this year. Only one of those eight had a losing record, and then only because that team played three games versus the GCL. Overrall, those eight teams were 60-23 excluding their losses to X. Four of five Ohio foes qualified for the Ohio post-season and one is still alive. All three out-of-state competitors will be solid contenders for state titles.


So:

1) Highly regarded state
2) High interplay amongst its top programs compared to other top states
3) Significant out-of-state play (at least a dozen games by the GCL, for example)
4) Play versus non-Ohio powers (Dematha, Trinity, Independence and some lesser powers)


As a generalization, it comes down to teams that tend to win most of their games playing teams that tend to win most of their games. Over half of the GCL's non-league comp so far this year has between 0 and 2 losses apart from their GCL games.

[consumerman]

just will point out MANY of the teams you said the GCL has had to seek out are really teams that were matched against them in the herbie

saying elder went and seeked to play DLS is false
saying Moeller went and seeked to play Byrnes is false

a majority of the teams you mentioned were in fact herbie matchups

you are smarter than that

[consumerman]

from sfgate.com on local playoffs

: Serra beat five league champions, including a 52-31 win over third-seeded Gilroy

still think they are a cupcake?

[WoodyHayes]

I have to hijack this thread and let you know that SLC would beat all those teams. I couldnt resist.

PS: This is not WoodyHayes writing this. I am another Texas poster who has busted in to Woody's house and have hijacked his computer.

[concha]

just will point out MANY of the teams you said the GCL has had to seek out are really teams that were matched against them in the herbie

saying elder went and seeked to play DLS is false
saying Moeller went and seeked to play Byrnes is false

a majority of the teams you mentioned were in fact herbie matchups

you are smarter than that

When they signed up for the Herbie, who do you think they were expecting to play? Prominent programs from around the nation, right?

[concha]

from sfgate.com on local playoffs

: Serra beat five league champions, including a 52-31 win over third-seeded Gilroy

still think they are a cupcake?

Of course. Maybe they aren't to the five champions of the girls school leagues they beat, but losing to St. Francine AND Riordan? What were their records again?

[consumerman]

Of course. Maybe they aren't to the five champions of the girls school leagues they beat, but losing to St. Francine AND Riordan? What were their records again?

st francis and riordan lost 1 game and tied 1 game OUT OF LEAGUE

st francis lost to a 9-1 team 20-13
st francis tied a 9-0-1 team 3-3

how many times do I have to post these?

and serra BEAT 5 league champs, including the champ in their own wcal bellarmine who was 9-0 entering the game

[consumerman]

When they signed up for the Herbie, who do you think they were expecting to play? Prominent programs from around the nation, right?

like that power from arkansas that couldnt beat a junior high team

[concha]

like that power from arkansas that couldnt beat a junior high team

Springdale didn't live up to expectations. Oh, well. The majority of out-of-state teams that show up at the Herbie do very well.

Lakeland (15-0)

Byrnes (12-2, losing to the state champions twice)

DLS (13-1)

Hoover (9-1 on the field, loss was in the Herbie)

Dematha (9-2, one loss from the Herbie)

Hamilton (13-1, loss in the Herbie)

Don Bosco (12-0)

Buford (10-0)

Poly (9-1)

Tulsa Union (11-0)

Gateway (10-1, loss in the Herbie)

Central Catholic (11-0)


Apart from Springdale and Cardinal O'Hara, the visiting teams to the Herbie have basically ranged from state champions to well above average at worst. If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.

[concha]

st francis and riordan lost 1 game and tied 1 game OUT OF LEAGUE

st francis lost to a 9-1 team 20-13
st francis tied a 9-0-1 team 3-3

how many times do I have to post these?

and serra BEAT 5 league champs, including the champ in their own wcal bellarmine who was 9-0 entering the game

High quality leagues I'm sure.

[consumerman]

High quality leagues I'm sure.

4 from cali

1 frem nevada

cali is 3-0 at the herbie against those awesome gcl teams and glenvile which beat that awesome st ugly team you try to make a power

[concha]

4 from cali

1 frem nevada

cali is 3-0 at the herbie against those awesome gcl teams and glenvile which beat that awesome st ugly team you try to make a power

DLS is not in any of those leagues you mention, right?

Poly? No.

MV? I don't believe so.

The Ohio teams that lost have/had 10 losses between them at last count. The Cali teams they played have/had four. 3-0 is 3-0. But there are no real signature wins there.

The Poly - Glenville game went down to the wire, as did the Glenville-Iggy game (as did the Moe-MV game). I am not trying to make Ignatius anything. And I haven't called them awesome. They have an excellent football program and a young team this year.

[consumerman]

DLS is not in any of those leagues you mention, right?

Poly? No.

MV? I don't believe so.

The Ohio teams that lost have/had 10 losses between them at last count. The Cali teams they played have/had four. 3-0 is 3-0. But there are no real signature wins there.

The Poly - Glenville game went down to the wire, as did the Glenville-Iggy game (as did the Moe-MV game). I am not trying to make Ignatius anything. And I haven't called them awesome. They have an excellent football program and a young team this year.

you ARE trying to belittle serra which plays in the ultra-competitive west catholic league

that leagues IS 27-2-1 in non-league games this year

the losses are to a 9-0 and a 9-1 team the tie is to a 9-0-1 team

serra BEAT the #1 and #3 teams in the west catholic league, although they lost to the #5 and #6 teams

they beat last saturday state #9 undefeated bellarmine

they HAVE beaten 5 league champions

st francis one team they lost to (13-10) also beat the ccs #1 seeded playoff team Oak Grove (9-1) 31-15

just accept facts for once and dont try to spin city it

that you are ignorant of the facts and the quality of the west catholic league does not surprise me

[consumerman]

If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.

all this from a guy who criticized dls cupcake schedule which included norcal #2 serra and ccs power palma who went 8-1 in games other than dls as well as national power mission viejo and former ss finalitst loyola, the rest of their games are league games

talk about crystal balls to avoid down years
ya MV in their down year beat a gcl playoff winning team

hindsight and jealousy are more appropriate terms

[concha]

If you get that crystal ball of yours working so they can avoid teams in down years, then let Kirk know.

all this from a guy who criticized dls cupcake schedule which included norcal #2 serra and ccs power palma who went 8-1 in games other than dls as well as national power mission viejo and former ss finalitst loyola, the rest of their games are league games

talk about crystal balls to avoid down years
ya MV in their down year beat a gcl playoff winning team

hindsight and jealousy are more appropriate terms

I didn't criticize it. You are just being an oversensitive pantywaist.

I said it was a shame to have such an apparently good team this year yet no top notch comp (they're Ali without a Frazier). You disagree?


1) Against its two toughest competitors, Palma lost by a combined 90-14. They beat their 3rd toughest by 7-3. All other wins were over teams with between 4 and 10 losses.

2) MV is now a national power for the sake of DLS's sched this year? Great. 5-3 in Ohio Moeller lost to a national power. Good to know.

3) Loyola is 4-6.

4) Serra's opponents aren't necessarily awesome to behold. Four-loss "league champion" Buchanan finished in a 3-way tie for first. The other two "champs" had 3 or 4 losses also. Their wins? Over teams with 4 losses, 5 losses, 10 losses....McQueen from Nevada? Think there may be a reason you don't hear much about nationally or regionally recognized teams from Nevada? Gilroy is 2-2 outside its league. One of those wins is over a sub-.500 team and the other to a small division school. And Serra lost to teams that are 9-8-3 on the field.

[skyway28]

It is not just the computer. That is a major part of the point. In my experience pollsters are of the same opinion regarding the schedules of teams like St. X. I don't think the calpreps model arriving at the same conclusion is a coincidence.

Ohio football is highly regarded. I don't think that is argued. Its top teams interplay much more than in other highly regarded states. Games between the likes of St. Xavier, Elder, Moe, Colerain, Ignatius, St. Edward, McKinley, Massillon and others are all commonplace in Ohio. Much of it has to do with the Harbin system. Many teams refuse to play teams like the Big Catholics and hurt their chances for the post-season, so the Catholic powers have to play one another and seek out-of-state competition. Lakeland, Warren Central, DeMatha, Trinity, Independence, DLS, Bethlehem Catholic, Louisville St. X, Byrnes and others have all been faced just by the GCL in recent years.

When the top programs from a top state play one another more frequently than those in other states, and play out-of-state powers also, it only stands to reason that their strength of schedule will be considered very highly.

Example: X has played 8 games against non-league competition this year. Only one of those eight had a losing record, and then only because that team played three games versus the GCL. Overrall, those eight teams were 60-23 excluding their losses to X. Four of five Ohio foes qualified for the Ohio post-season and one is still alive. All three out-of-state competitors will be solid contenders for state titles.


So:

1) Highly regarded state
2) High interplay amongst its top programs compared to other top states
3) Significant out-of-state play (at least a dozen games by the GCL, for example)
4) Play versus non-Ohio powers (Dematha, Trinity, Independence and some lesser powers)


As a generalization, it comes down to teams that tend to win most of their games playing teams that tend to win most of their games. Over half of the GCL's non-league comp so far this year has between 0 and 2 losses apart from their GCL games.

There's no doubt you are accurate in explaining how the computer arrives at its numbers. How many games in 2007 have teams from Ohio played against a team from any of the Southeastern states? Texas? California? Not enough to have a sufficient sample. 99% of all of those out-of-state games are against teams from states in the Midwest or Northeast-read mostly of the not-so-athletic variety. Lakeland is the only athletic team any of those teams has faced. And that Lakeland team was uncharacteristically weak at QB and one-dimensional, which X's stack defense is designed to stop.

Fact is, what Ohio teams do against teams from Indiana, Kentucky etc tells us little to nothing about how they fare against the best from other places. And, a couple of home games against a handful of teams traveling long-distances to play in front of partisan crowds (The Herbie) doesn't count for much, either.

[concha]

There's no doubt you are accurate in explaining how the computer arrives at its numbers. How many games in 2007 have teams from Ohio played against a team from any of the Southeastern states? Texas? California? Not enough to have a sufficient sample. 99% of all of those out-of-state games are against teams from states in the Midwest or Northeast-read mostly of the not-so-athletic variety. Lakeland is the only athletic team any of those teams has faced. And that Lakeland team was uncharacteristically weak at QB and one-dimensional, which X's stack defense is designed to stop.

Fact is, what Ohio teams do against teams from Indiana, Kentucky etc tells us little to nothing about how they fare against the best from other places. And, a couple of home games against a handful of teams traveling long-distances to play in front of partisan crowds (The Herbie) doesn't count for much, either.

You appear to be looking for exact science. And I think the athleticism mantra gets overblown. Ohio teams (and not necessarily our title contenders) have faced top teams from the areas you mention and not done too badly.

Ohio teams like Colerain and Glenville, for example, are extremely athletic. Look at the talent they put out. Talent-laden Lakeland nearly lost to X.

Yes, X had homefield advantage versus Lakeland. Then again, Lakeland was a more experienced, senior-laden team with 7 or 8 or 9 major D1A recruits. I think they sent at least 6 to Florida. Florida folks expected a blowout. X ended up being the 3rd or 4th best team in Ohio.

If there were a significant gap in team quality versus the Southeast or other areas and their athleticism, you'd have expected to see it. X took favored Lakeland to the wire. Clear underdog Moeller lost on a controversial PAT to SC #2 Byrnes. Colerain beat Hoover. Elder, who barely made the Ohio D1 tourney, beat Independence. DeMatha is supposed to have lots of D1 recruits and were spanked by X. Glenville took Poly to the wire, losing due to turnovers, not athleticism (they actually had more yardage).

Top teams from the places you mention have faced Ohio teams. Ohio teams have done respectably well. It's not like an average team from the Southeast has come to Ohio and ripped an ohio power a new one. Far from it.

You are speculating.

[Chicago]

I think the crowd at the Herbie was an advantage for Lakeland. The air horns (just before almost every St. X snap) were brutal.

Why do all of the athletic high school kids live in Florida, and all of the slow, fat kids in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and other northern states?

I don't think the gap in athleticism is all that big, if it exists at all.

Lakeland was athletic. But I imagine they were more athletic than all of their Florida opponents, too.

[consumerman]

I didn't criticize it. You are just being an oversensitive pantywaist.

I said it was a shame to have such an apparently good team this year yet no top notch comp (they're Ali without a Frazier). You disagree?


1) Against its two toughest competitors, Palma lost by a combined 90-14. They beat their 3rd toughest by 7-3. All other wins were over teams with between 4 and 10 losses.

2) MV is now a national power for the sake of DLS's sched this year? Great. 5-3 in Ohio Moeller lost to a national power. Good to know.

3) Loyola is 4-6.

4) Serra's opponents aren't necessarily awesome to behold. Four-loss "league champion" Buchanan finished in a 3-way tie for first. The other two "champs" had 3 or 4 losses also. Their wins? Over teams with 4 losses, 5 losses, 10 losses....McQueen from Nevada? Think there may be a reason you don't hear much about nationally or regionally recognized teams from Nevada? Gilroy is 2-2 outside its league. One of those wins is over a sub-.500 team and the other to a small division school. And Serra lost to teams that are 9-8-3 on the field.

AS USUAL, You missed the entire point

you made a smartass comment on having a crystal ball to predict how weak a team WILL be

then you disect DLS schedule IN HINDSIGHT

the teams that DLS scheduled WERE TOP NOTCH teams by all appearances
heading into the season

some slipped more than others as the games were played

so you can use the crystal ball excuse but DLS cant?

DLS had a very competitive non-league schedule heading into the 2007 season

try being consistent for once

[consumerman]

the facts remain

serra was norcal #2 heading into the 2007 season

they went 7-3 and BEAT 5 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS

they lost to DLS and 2 teams in their ultra-competitive league that in its entirety went 27-2-1 in non-league games

the losses were to DLS, by 7 to a 9-1 team and a 3-3 tie against a 9-0-1 team

spin it all you want

a gcl power LOST to a 4-5 team that scored 110 points all year
the gcl star team took 3 overtimes to beat a 3 loss team by 3 points whcih lost to another team by 21 and also lost to a team that a cali team beat 21-13

the facts remain unchanged

your inability to accept them does also

[concha]

AS USUAL, You missed the entire point

you made a smartass comment on having a crystal ball to predict how weak a team WILL be

then you disect DLS schedule IN HINDSIGHT

the teams that DLS scheduled WERE TOP NOTCH teams by all appearances
heading into the season

some slipped more than others as the games were played

so you can use the crystal ball excuse but DLS cant?

DLS had a very competitive non-league schedule heading into the 2007 season

try being consistent for once

I didn't miss a thing. I didn't say DLS tried to schedule weaklings. i said they have ended up with a Frazierless schedule.


You named one weak Herbie competitor as if that shows the non-Ohio Herbie teams aren't good.

[consumerman]

did the gcl go WINLESS in the 2006 herbie?

despite a huge no-traveling, home-field advantage

st x shoulda coulda woulda against lakeland
moeller shoulda woulda coulda against byrnes
elder shoulda notta showupa against dls

[consumerman]

I didn't miss a thing. I didn't say DLS tried to schedule weaklings. i said they have ended up with a Frazierless schedule.


You named one weak Herbie competitor as if that shows the non-Ohio Herbie teams aren't good.

that is HINDSIGHT

[skyway28]

I think the crowd at the Herbie was an advantage for Lakeland. The air horns (just before almost every St. X snap) were brutal.

Why do all of the athletic high school kids live in Florida, and all of the slow, fat kids in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and other northern states?

I don't think the gap in athleticism is all that big, if it exists at all.

Lakeland was athletic. But I imagine they were more athletic than all of their Florida opponents, too.

If you think Lakeland had a crowd advantage for the X game, I don't think I could contribute anything further to the discussion. If Lakeland had a crowd advantage for the X game, then I am so incredibly ignorant that I need to bow out of posting on message boards and take up something like managing a dog-fighting ring...or something.

Why do all of the athletic kids live in the South? Well, not ALL of them do, but many more do than in the Midwest. Why? I don't know. I do know that every relatively objective player evaluater will tell you California, Texas and the South are the 'speed states'. I do know that a strong majority of speed guys that go to places like OSU and Michigan come from the 'speed states'.

Lakeland, in particluar in 2006, was fairly undistinguished in the speed department relative to a great number of Florida teams-or even many past Lakeland teams. Rainey was incredible, but, otherwise, that was one of Lakeland's slower teams. Great line play, but only a handful of speed guys in the starting line-up.

[concha]

the facts remain

serra was norcal #2 heading into the 2007 season

they went 7-3 and BEAT 5 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS

they lost to DLS and 2 teams in their ultra-competitive league that in its entirety went 27-2-1 in non-league games

the losses were to DLS, by 7 to a 9-1 team and a 3-3 tie against a 9-0-1 team

spin it all you want

a gcl power LOST to a 4-5 team that scored 110 points all year
the gcl star team took 3 overtimes to beat a 3 loss team by 3 points whcih lost to another team by 21 and also lost to a team that a cali team beat 21-13

the facts remain unchanged

your inability to accept them does also

Other facts:

They lost twice to teams with 8 losses and 3 ties.

Co-Co-league champ Buchanan was spanked at least three times and never beat a team with fewer than 4 losses.

When an undefeated league champ like Gilroy goes .500 out of conference, the "champion" doesn't carry so much weight.


As regards Elder. Who cares? Elder was a 2OT win over a 5-5 team from being the league doormat. Point?

X beat Glenville by over 2 TDs without their star running back and beat Ignatius with a sophomore QB in his first start. Not too bad. Glenville and Iggy's losses are to teams with a combined 52-5 record. Keep humping.

[concha]

did the gcl go WINLESS in the 2006 herbie?

despite a huge no-traveling, home-field advantage

st x shoulda coulda woulda against lakeland
moeller shoulda woulda coulda against byrnes
elder shoulda notta showupa against dls

X was an underdog, even at home (actually not X's home field, but anyway), to a more experienced national #1 sporting 7 or 8 major D1 recruits. They lost in a close one. No coulda shoulda woulda from me. Making up crap like that is juvenile.

Moeller went in unranked to play a team ranked in the national top 5 and took them to the wire. A controversial PAT kick kept it from overtime (BTW, the kid who kicked it was quoted in the press that he thought it missed and a DLS fan/buddy of mine who was at the game agreed). Byrnes ended up the #2 team in their state and Moe finished with 5 losses. Hardly a loss by an Ohio contender. LMAO. But then again, you're the lame-o who goes around with the tin cup begging for everyone to say that DLS beat and Elder team that was an Ohio juggernaut. You probably see it differently.:rolleyes:

Elder shouldn't have showed up at at least three other games that year also.

[Chicago]

Good call.

I don't think you can contribute anything further to the discussion, either.

Yes, St. X had more fans, and had fans from other Ohio schools there, too. I had a pretty good view of it. I was at the top of the lower section, with the Bomb Squad in front of me.

The most significant crowd noise of the whole afternoon was by far the air horns that several of the Lakeland fans had.

By the way, I was yelling for St. X, but I didn't bring an air horn.

Here's the latest comprehensive list of boys' track rankings that I found.

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lists/2005/prep_out_m.html

There were no comprehensive lists for 2006 and 2007 but you can piece together that information pretty easily (at least the average Yappi member could, I imagine). The south did better in 2007 than in 2005, I think.

Maybe Colorado, New Hampshire, and Delaware are speed states, too.

California definitely has a lot of fast kids. It's a big state, of course (although it might still turn out well per capita).

Your thought process is so ridiculously simplistic that it's hard not to keep jumping ahead of you. Sorry.

[consumerman]

X was an underdog, even at home (actually not X's home field, but anyway), to a more experienced national #1 sporting 7 or 8 major D1 recruits. They lost in a close one. No coulda shoulda woulda from me. Making up crap like that is juvenile.

Moeller went in unranked to play a team ranked in the national top 5 and took them to the wire. A controversial PAT kick kept it from overtime (BTW, the kid who kicked it was quoted in the press that he thought it missed and a DLS fan/buddy of mine who was at the game agreed). Byrnes ended up the #2 team in their state and Moe finished with 5 losses. Hardly a loss by an Ohio contender. LMAO. But then again, you're the lame-o who goes around with the tin cup begging for everyone to say that DLS beat and Elder team that was an Ohio juggernaut. You probably see it differently.:rolleyes:

Elder shouldn't have showed up at at least three other games that year also.

Moeller jumped to a 20-7 lead and then choked the game away with conservative play calling, poor special teams play, and coaching by a coach more second-guessed than anyone. Byrnes stormed back to win when the game was on the line, Byrnes came through, and Moeller complained about the refs.

St X and Lakeland was more of a tossup than the great underdog you make S X to be. St X could have won THEY DIDN'T

The GCL, with tremendous travel, rest and home field advantages (DLS doesnt play all its games at itw own field but the local games are still HOME games mr excuse maker), went 0-3.

Kirk Herbstriet said the point of the Herbie was to see if Cincinnati and Ohio play the best football in the nation, which he believed they did.

They did NOT on that day

[concha]

that is HINDSIGHT

Nimrod:

It is reality. As I said, I am not accusing DLS of scheduling soft. DLS is not playing teams from past years. If most of the teams DLS has played this year aren't that great, then they aren't. Reality.

This year, DLS's opponents are a combined 47-42-1 and none have fewer than three losses. In contrast, St. X's are 93-40. Seven of X's opponents have three losses or less and just one has a losing record (and that team has calprep's 4th ranked strength of schedule in the country).

[consumerman]

and as I understand it, you put yourself in the very difficult (facetious) poisiton of saying when the ohio teams win in the herbie it shows the superiority of ohio football but when ohio teams lose in the herbie, it is because the teams are not that good and having an off year and were big underdogs anyway

yawn

similar to your awesome gcl schedules that lose to a 4-5 team that scored 110 points all year and your #1 team barely scrapes by with a 3 point win in 3 overtimes against a 3 loss team it is because that team used to win state titles 15 years ago, but a serra team that plays in the MUCH BETTER BALANCED and MORE COMPETITIVE WCAL and BEATS 5 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS all you can say is those league champions arent any good

yawn again

[consumerman]

Nimrod:

It is reality. As I said, I am not accusing DLS of scheduling soft. DLS is not playing teams from past years. If most of the teams DLS has played this year aren't that great, then they aren't. Reality.

This year, DLS's opponents are a combined 47-42-1 and none have fewer than three losses. In contrast, St. X's are 93-40. Seven of X's opponents have three losses or less and just one has a losing record (and that team has calprep's 4th ranked strength of schedule in the country).

and DLS closest game was 18 points (led 40-0) and outscored their opponents 279-14 in the first half this year and DESTROYED a team that traveled 2000 miles and BEAT a GCL playoff winning team (St X probably gave up 14 points in a span of about 5 minutes against the Kentucky school)

St X has a more OVERALL impressive schedule (Mainly due to DLS "league) games

DLS has been much more dominant and has had no 3 overtime 3 point inferior wins

which is better?

AGAIN I assume on your reasoning that the 1972 Miami Dolphins (14-0 regular season) were in reality not any good as evidenced by the best team they beat in the regular season was 8-6

ready to make that argument?

[skyway28]

Good call.

I don't think you can contribute anything further to the discussion, either.

Yes, St. X had more fans, and had fans from other Ohio schools there, too. I had a pretty good view of it. I was at the top of the lower section, with the Bomb Squad in front of me.

The most significant crowd noise of the whole afternoon was by far the air horns that several of the Lakeland fans had.

By the way, I was yelling for St. X, but I didn't bring an air horn.

Here's the latest comprehensive list of boys' track rankings that I found.

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lists/2005/prep_out_m.html

There were no comprehensive lists for 2006 and 2007 but you can piece together that information pretty easily (at least the average Yappi member could, I imagine). The south did better in 2007 than in 2005, I think.

Maybe Colorado, New Hampshire, and Delaware are speed states, too.

California definitely has a lot of fast kids. It's a big state, of course (although it might still turn out well per capita).

Your thought process is so ridiculously simplistic that it's hard not to keep jumping ahead of you. Sorry.


LOL. This is quite entertaining, if nothing else. So a few air horns gives a team a crowd advantage over a team with, what, 18,000 fans rooting for them? But, I'll give you credit for admitting to yelling for St. X. Perhaps you're not entirely objective in all of this.

You give results for a track meet as evidence for what states/areas have the fastest football teams, and I'm the simple mind here? LMAO. I think I'll side with my observations and the opinion of every objective evaluater of football players and speed in the country over you and your track numbers any day.

[Chicago]

I didn't see 18,000 fans.

You are right. Track times are certainly not an objective measure of speed, and are of no use in comparing states. If you have an objective list of football speed, please post it.

[concha]

Moeller jumped to a 20-7 lead and then choked the game away with conservative play calling, poor special teams play, and coaching by a coach more second-guessed than anyone. Byrnes stormed back to win when the game was on the line, Byrnes came through, and Moeller complained about the refs.

St X and Lakeland was more of a tossup than the great underdog you make S X to be. St X could have won THEY DIDN'T

The GCL, with tremendous travel, rest and home field advantages (DLS doesnt play all its games at itw own field but the local games are still HOME games mr excuse maker), went 0-3.

Kirk Herbstriet said the point of the Herbie was to see if Cincinnati and Ohio play the best football in the nation, which he believed they did.

They did NOT on that day

1) I don't disagree that Moe probably should have won. I think they lost it rather than Byrnes really winning it, if you get my meaning. To be honest, The MV game was not much different. The fact remains that Byrnes was highly ranked nationally and Moe unranked. Byrnes finished the #2 team in their state. Moe went 5-5 (4-4 in Ohio). Quite a contrast.

2) Again you miss the point with X-Lakeland. Lakeland WAS favored. They were a more experienced team. They had God's Own Supply of senior major D1A talent. The fact it was so close speaks well of X and Ohio IMO, especially considering that X ended up getting their clocks cleaned in the 3rd round of the Ohio tourney by a team that got bounced the very next week.

3) Elder was creamed 4 times that year.


You can shuck and jive all you like. the fact is that the GCL were underdogs in each game. Basically, their ONLY real advantages were playing in their home city.

Notably, Colerain beat X badly and they themselves lost. So Lakeland barely beat the #4 (maybe) team in Ohio in OT. SC #2 Byrnes beat a Moeller team by 1 controversial point. Moe ended up with 4 losses may not have even been an Ohio top 10. Elder? They beat nobody worth talking about at all in 2006. In their four losses they were down a combined 83-18 at the half. DLS actually had the closest score at halftime. All but 6 of of Elder's points against X, Moe and Chatard were in garbage time.

So:
The Ohio #4 (maybe) barely lost to Florida's (and in at least one poll, the nation's) #1 team.

4-4 in Ohio Moeller lost controversially to SC's #2 team.

An Elder team that was pummeled by every good team it faced lost to a DLS team that went 13-1.


So much for the best playing the best. You may want to ponder whether a single state's teams should be favored in an event where they face top teams from the rest of the nation. In 2006, the GCL faced the CA #3(?), FL #1 and SC #2. But you seem to think they should have been favored. Right.



PS: That's a neat trick reading Herbstreit's mind like that.

[concha]

and as I understand it, you put yourself in the very difficult (facetious) poisiton of saying when the ohio teams win in the herbie it shows the superiority of ohio football but when ohio teams lose in the herbie, it is because the teams are not that good and having an off year and were big underdogs anyway

yawn

similar to your awesome gcl schedules that lose to a 4-5 team that scored 110 points all year and your #1 team barely scrapes by with a 3 point win in 3 overtimes against a 3 loss team it is because that team used to win state titles 15 years ago, but a serra team that plays in the MUCH BETTER BALANCED and MORE COMPETITIVE WCAL and BEATS 5 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS all you can say is those league champions arent any good

yawn again

When did I do that? You make crap up. What an embarrassment.


I have never said anything more than that Ohio has performed respectably in the Herbie and showed that Ohio has shown it has very good football. I have never made a case that Ohio football is #1 due to any Herbie results. Stop being such a clown. Stop making up garbage. Deal with reality.

And I don't get your obsession with Elder's loss to Eds. I don't care. X got a win playing away with a new QB to a team that's otherwise 8-2 with losses to teams that are 21-4. How awful.

If you think Serra is super-duper. Then super-duper.

[concha]

and DLS closest game was 18 points (led 40-0) and outscored their opponents 279-14 in the first half this year and DESTROYED a team that traveled 2000 miles and BEAT a GCL playoff winning team (St X probably gave up 14 points in a span of about 5 minutes against the Kentucky school)

St X has a more OVERALL impressive schedule (Mainly due to DLS "league) games

DLS has been much more dominant and has had no 3 overtime 3 point inferior wins

which is better?

AGAIN I assume on your reasoning that the 1972 Miami Dolphins (14-0 regular season) were in reality not any good as evidenced by the best team they beat in the regular season was 8-6

ready to make that argument?

Your neurons aren't marksmen, are they. They just fire off any which way.


I haven't stated that DLS isn't very good. In your dream world you seem to think I have. In fact, I have said they are very good, but their schedule is lacking in top comp.

So, DLS has been more dominant in its games. And it's average opponent plays maybe 6-4 ball, so go figure. X played a much more formidabe schedule without the #14 ranked all-purpose back in the nation for four games this year and lost its senior quarterback also while playing a schedule that some pollsters are calling arguably the toughest in the nation.

Better? How do you judge?

[concha]

LOL. This is quite entertaining, if nothing else. So a few air horns gives a team a crowd advantage over a team with, what, 18,000 fans rooting for them? But, I'll give you credit for admitting to yelling for St. X. Perhaps you're not entirely objective in all of this.

You give results for a track meet as evidence for what states/areas have the fastest football teams, and I'm the simple mind here? LMAO. I think I'll side with my observations and the opinion of every objective evaluater of football players and speed in the country over you and your track numbers any day.

A few years ago Glenville's 4x100 team faced and beat Poly in California if memory serves. I believe Poly is perhaps THE track power in California. Glenville also faced what was then the #2 all-time fastest 4x100 team out of Texas (I think in the Nike nationals in NC?). On paper, the Texas team had times that smoked Glenville's. In the actual race, Glenville's 'A' team won the race by 1/2 second and the Glenville 'B' took third just half a second behind the Texas team.

Teams like Hoover, Poly and Lakeland should have run rings around the Ohio teams they've faced from the sound of things. In the end, all the games were close in score and stats. Ohio was up a little in some games and down a little in others.