Why Can't High Schools Keep Accurate Stats

[AmericaOne]

If you look at the Stats on the GMC you will notice that they are missing many hits, pitching wins, averages are skewered, fielding errors are not kept, and much more.
If you look at Princeton's stats. Eric Britton is listed with one loss and zero wins. The young man has 3 wins, and his average is much higher. They do not have David Ropers' correct stats. I do not think any of the stats are correct other than perhaps Marcus Davis's batting average.
Check the wins and losses for the players, they do not add up??:shrug:
How can the GMC show leaders when they do not show accurate stats for each school. Fairfield NEVER had accurate stats the past 3 years and certainly not last year.

What is the problem?:wallbang: Basketball stats are kept, as well as Football. Why is it so hard to keep accurate stats in baseball.
Monroe has No stats for their players. You can not get on the site and find out what kids are doing.

Not keeping accurate records does these young student athletes a tremendous dis-service when perhaps a college coach looks on and sees a player is 0-1 with a 3.8 ERA when he really is 3-1 with a 1.56 ERA. Or a player is hitting .431 with 3 home runs, but is listed as .379 with no home runs.

Has anyone noticed the stats not being kept properly? :cool: I know that they pay someone to put stats in at the GMC schools. Can they at least get it right for all the players, not just a select few.

[springer]

The problem is that in other sports, the teams have a person assigned to stats on site. Football has a guy in the press box at every game and there is someone at the scorer's table in basketball. Most baseball teams only have 2 coaches and those guys have enough on their plates. Until baseball programs get designated scorers, their stats will continue to be skewed.

[GCPRO]

Just off the top of my head. In both football and basketball, all games are videotaped. That gives the coaching staffs a backup to verify stats. Not easily achieved in baseball. T
Another difference would be the wide differences in scoring in baseball. Hits, errors, etc. all affect ERAS and the like on the defensive end. No such discrepancies in basketball. A made basket is a made basket, a rebound is a rebound. The one football statistic that is most widely abused is the tackle stat. Pile jumpers pad their stats.
Back in the day in a HS game, a routine fly ball is dropped in RF, our book has it as an errror, the next day in the paper, said batter was credited with a 2B, and I am talking flat out routine flyball. My guess that staff or their scorer also had kids with very low ERAs.
Just too many differences. A HR at Fairfield is not the same as a HR at Wyoming's field.
I agree that all staffs should do a more diligent job of keeping stats but I have many college coaches say they rely very little on HS/travel ball baseball stats.
More than anything it is for mommy/daddy to run around and tell everyone of Junior's great season.

[IMHO]

Stats in highschool just isn't worth getting worked up about. A-1 college coaches don't care what your stats are. Even if good honest stats are kept - how do you account for the difference is talent levels that are played against. A batter can go crazy against pitching that really is just batting practice half the year and do nothing against good pitching but have great stats for the year. Unless you are there to witness everything to judge if the 5 HR 12 RBI day came against good pitching or a batting practive pitcher it doesn't mean anything.

Stats are a huge part of the game and can be used tremendously to understand the game and read how a game went but in high school coaches and parents who don't always know the game are the ones that keep the boook therefore in high school stats are for people who like to go around bragging about things. They are not always accurate and are not always indicative of how the game actually went or provide complete evidence of how a player plays against the competition that he will face in college.

[thePITman]

springer and IMHO, great posts.:thumb:

I am an assistant coach for a varsity baseball team, and I am also the designated keeper of the book. We keep very complete and very accurate stats of all our players, and we also do our part in reporting them to the newspapers when asked. I wish more schools could say the same thing.

[gocomets21]

I do agree with A-1, I do like to see the accurate stats and do feel that college coaches probably do like to take a look at them. For a player like Marcus Davis it might not matter, as everyone knows his ability and skills, but for lesser known players their stats may be able to get some coaches attention. I could be way off on that though. I for one love looking at stats and see how kids are performing. Obviously stats don't mean everything but they do let fans who didn't make a game know how things went.

I posted these in another thread, but Mason does an outstanding job on stats. I am not sure who does them but I believe they have a scorer who uses a computer program. Their stats are very detailed. Here are their season stats: http://www.masoncomets.org/athletics/teamcume.htm
And here is a link to their season boxscores: http://www.masoncomets.org/athletics/results_spring_08_09_2.html

[thePITman]

I do agree with A-1, I do like to see the accurate stats and do feel that college coaches probably do like to take a look at them. For a player like Marcus Davis it might not matter, as everyone knows his ability and skills, but for lesser known players their stats may be able to get some coaches attention. I could be way off on that though. I for one love looking at stats and see how kids are performing. Obviously stats don't mean everything but they do let fans who didn't make a game know how things went.

Very well said. Coaches are initially attracted by a few stats and/or word of mouth, but they get all they need when they watch the player(s) in person. A lot can be learned by just watching a player in the field, batters box, baselines, and dugout. Normally it's very easy to spot the true "baseball players" from the natural athletes.

[AmericaOne]

Very well said. Coaches are initially attracted by a few stats and/or word of mouth, but they get all they need when they watch the player(s) in person. A lot can be learned by just watching a player in the field, batters box, baselines, and dugout. Normally it's very easy to spot the true "baseball players" from the natural athletes.

Pitman: I understand that ultimately the player must perform to make it collegiately. I am talking about the introduction. I do think coaches look at the enquirer's top picks for HR's, AVG.s', etc. You are right in saying it depends on the pitcher, field, defense, etc., but all things being like they are they do not break it down. A D4 school and D1 school both have .500 hitters, it is typically easy to surmise that the D1 school plays stronger competition so the .500 is strong, like Marcus Davis. The GMC schools pay someone to report scores. Fairfield does for sure. The problem was the person responsible did not always show up for the games. They still paid him. This does a dis-service to the kids who may have been in the top 10 poll but because no reports of accurate scoring they never get the publicity. It does matter to the kid who is not getting the looks.
It costs only $20 to use scoorebooth.com and they do an excellent job. All you do is plug in the numbers. They could have two people who score the game and any controversies can be cleared up by the coach. Most hits are hits, and most errors are errors. The problem comes when it is a hard hit to third and it takes a bad bounce, it is then subjective but it can be done.
I would just like to see a better system implemented. I am also for taping the game, it could be used for grading the umpires also. They do it in other sports,maybe with the advent of twitter and Yappi it is time for taping the League games... jmo

[AmericaOne]

I do agree with A-1, I do like to see the accurate stats and do feel that college coaches probably do like to take a look at them. For a player like Marcus Davis it might not matter, as everyone knows his ability and skills, but for lesser known players their stats may be able to get some coaches attention. I could be way off on that though. I for one love looking at stats and see how kids are performing. Obviously stats don't mean everything but they do let fans who didn't make a game know how things went.

I posted these in another thread, but Mason does an outstanding job on stats. I am not sure who does them but I believe they have a scorer who uses a computer program. Their stats are very detailed. Here are their season stats: http://www.masoncomets.org/athletics/teamcume.htm
And here is a link to their season boxscores: http://www.masoncomets.org/athletics/results_spring_08_09_2.html

gocomets::) Those are generated electronically and someone has done the work necessary for accurate scoring and record keeping. Mason is doing a GREAT JOB and also they have done very well this season. Someone cares at the Home of the Comets... Lets hope that others will begin to do the same..A good Palm Pilot sorer is worth his weight...

[Fairplay]

Great post.

I love correct baseball stats and it's a shame that at the high school level, most teams do not keep correct stats.

I have seen numerous times where a ROE is recorded as a hit. I have seen singles direct to an outfielder being recorded as triples, etc., because the outfielder made an error to allow the runner to advance.

What the problem is (I have experience with 2 different high schools) is that the teams either have a student that doesn't understand baseball completely keeping the stats or worse, the score book is passed around to team players that are on the bench. Of course most times a fellow team mate is going to record a stat wrongly favorable to his team mate.

Another pet peeve is the fact that the sports editors at newspapers like the ABJ mix stats for D-1 with D-2, D-3 & D-4 teams. Comparing a D-1 player that is batting .500 to a D-4 player hitting .500 is a joke. Most of those D-4 players would be lucky to hit .200 if they played only against D-1 teams.

[Hometeam]

Great post.

I love correct baseball stats and it's a shame that at the high school level, most teams do not keep correct stats.

I have seen numerous times where a ROE is recorded as a hit. I have seen singles direct to an outfielder being recorded as triples, etc., because the outfielder made an error to allow the runner to advance.

What the problem is (I have experience with 2 different high schools) is that the teams either have a student that doesn't understand baseball completely keeping the stats or worse, the score book is passed around to team players that are on the bench. Of course most times a fellow team mate is going to record a stat wrongly favorable to his team mate.

Another pet peeve is the fact that the sports editors at newspapers like the ABJ mix stats for D-1 with D-2, D-3 & D-4 teams. Comparing a D-1 player that is batting .500 to a D-4 player hitting .500 is a joke. Most of those D-4 players would be lucky to hit .200 if they played only against D-1 teams.

In h.s., you can't assume that a kid at a D4 h.s. isn't as good as a kid from a D1; many of these kids from smaller school are even better than kids from bigger schools - it just depends on the kid. If the D4 kid plays on a summer team that is very competitive, then he's a good player no matter which h.s. he goes to.

But I agree that h.s. stats aren't accurate. I've seen a kid hit a triple but they recorded it as an error because the ball hit the outfielders glove. Likewise, I've seen errors recorded as hits. Just depends on the mood of the scorekeeper.

Baseball is a very subjective game - it's tough to quantify it. It's not like track where you can judge by a stopwatch.

[Caju]

Great post.
Comparing a D-1 player that is batting .500 to a D-4 player hitting .500 is a joke. Most of those D-4 players would be lucky to hit .200 if they played only against D-1 teams.

Ouch ouch! :)
My son is not even batting .500 at D-4. That's a scary thought, I suppose that would put him at .100 if he was at one of those amazing D-1's. :blush:
And that's only if he was lucky...
I've seen enough D-1 to know that he'd probably be really lucky, just like his brother.

[4luvofthegame]

Ouch ouch! :)
My son is not even batting .500 at D-4. That's a scary thought, I suppose that would put him at .100 if he was at one of those amazing D-1's. :blush:
And that's only if he was lucky...
I've seen enough D-1 to know that he'd probably be really lucky, just like his brother.

Not sure what you are saying. Are you being sarcastic?:shrug:

Too many things to respond to. For one Fairplay I think I understand where you are coming from. I don't think that you are saying that a d4 player can't be as good as a d1. What I think that you are saying is how can the paper put all the batting stats together without distinction! If you have a d4 player hitting off of a d4 pitcher, it does make a difference in stats. I will guess that if a d1 player could have 5-8 games hitting off of a d4 pitcher that instead of a .500 batting average, he may have a .700 or .800. Now gents don't get all huffy and say anything about the talent of a d4 pitcher. I am not saying anything about it. Not all d4 pitchers are d1, d2, d3 material. I know that you can have a d4 pitcher that can play with the big boys. What I am saying is Fairplay has made a good point that the paper doesn't seperate the divisions.

Next, I too have seen kids with the score book, worse yet I have had kids come up and ask me what to score something with the coach in the background. I have seen sacs scored as outs errors scored as runs. wp scored as pb, pb scored as wp. This is all because the kids on the team are scoring the game and don't know how to be objective. Or worse just don't know! I know of a instance where a high school had a pitcher scoring when he wasn't playing and every loose ball and passed ball was scored as a wild pitch. Wonder whos stats that made look better?

I am glad to know that college coaches don't put much emphesis on the stats, but here is my question. If they don't look at hs stats and they don't look at travel summer ball stats, what do they look at?

[Caju]

In 4 varsity years at a D-1 school my son's average was right around .400. He would be the first to tell you he's not a great hitter. I'm not buying the line that a .500 hitter on a D-4 team would be lucky to hit .200 at D-1. I've been there and I've seen good hitters at D-1 and I've seen good hitters at D-4. Because of the number of kids you have more good hitters at D-1, but to discount a kid just because he's at a D-4 is way off.
Also, not all D-1 pitchers are good enough to pitch at some D-3 or 4 schools, it works both ways. :)

[monomon]

Great post.

I love correct baseball stats and it's a shame that at the high school level, most teams do not keep correct stats.

I have seen numerous times where a ROE is recorded as a hit. I have seen singles direct to an outfielder being recorded as triples, etc., because the outfielder made an error to allow the runner to advance.

What the problem is (I have experience with 2 different high schools) is that the teams either have a student that doesn't understand baseball completely keeping the stats or worse, the score book is passed around to team players that are on the bench. Of course most times a fellow team mate is going to record a stat wrongly favorable to his team mate.

Another pet peeve is the fact that the sports editors at newspapers like the ABJ mix stats for D-1 with D-2, D-3 & D-4 teams. Comparing a D-1 player that is batting .500 to a D-4 player hitting .500 is a joke. Most of those D-4 players would be lucky to hit .200 if they played only against D-1 teams.

What would make you think that some good DII,DIII,DIV teams arent playing up. A real baseball guy wouldn't make comments like you made(even if he thought it) Why would you sterotype legit ball players at the smaller schools as mediocre baseball players. Like Caju said, there may be more at DI, but not neccessarily better. We baseball guys know whose legit and who isn't. Its only guys like you, who have to put down to make you or your kid look better.


and we are talking about kids, (not major to minor leaguers) if they aren't playing at the DI's, should be ashamed to get any recoginition, and also ashamed if a college coach comes recruiting.(ie, coach eh, i know you think im good, but my 6-6 60 speed and .500 ba dont count,and my 85-88 mph fastball isnt the same as a DI kids,and i didnt play 25 games at DI this spring like Fairplays son did, LOL, and Oh, I did outhit all the DI kids on my summer travel team, but I know that doesn't count, because Fairplay says it doesn't)

I will agree that there are alot of tainted stats. Noticed one of the top BA in the Rep this week showed a kid hitting .580 with a .585 oba. Should usually be anywhere from a 75 to 200 pts different. Alot of stat people score FC and errors as hits, along with passed balls vs wild pitches, which effects era. Alot o f stats are done manually, which leads to lots of errors when coachs have to edit after game is over.

[FI89]

I don't think there is any question that D1 TEAMS are better than teams from the lower divisions, except in a few cases of private schools where they compete in a lower division. However, that doesn't mean that the lower divisions don't have talented players that are just as good as players from D1 teams. I think the difference is the COLLECTIVE talent on a D1 team is much deeper than the lower divisions, which make those teams more competitive from the top to the bottom of the lineup including bench players. That is where you will see the difference.

[Hometeam]

I don't think there is any question that D1 TEAMS are better than teams from the lower divisions, except in a few cases of private schools where they compete in a lower division. However, that doesn't mean that the lower divisions don't have talented players that are just as good as players from D1 teams. I think the difference is the COLLECTIVE talent on a D1 team is much deeper than the lower divisions, which make those teams more competitive from the top to the bottom of the lineup including bench players. That is where you will see the difference.

The only difference is that the depth of pitching might be greater at a larger school. Other than that, the divisions are very comparable.

[4luvofthegame]

What would make you think that some good DII,DIII,DIV teams arent playing up. A real baseball guy wouldn't make comments like you made(even if he thought it) only jealous, idiot people like yourself. Why would you sterotype legit ball players at the smaller schools as mediocre baseball players. Like Caju said, there may be more at DI, but not neccessarily better. Do your homework before making stupid comments. We baseball guys know whose legit and who isn't. Its only guys like you, who have to put down to make you or your kid look better.

You are arrogant and stupid and not worth the time it takes to respond. And I'm sure you were prolly a career .200 hitter at an awesome DI school, and have always had in your mind that if you would have played at DII,DIII, DIV you would have been a .500 plus hitter. LOL guys like you are just sad,sad beings

and prolly the stupidest thing about your post is that kids, and we are talking about kids, (not major to minor leaguers) if they aren't playing at the DI's, should be ashamed to get any recoginition, and also ashamed if a college coach comes recruiting.(ie, coach eh, i know you think im good, but my 6-6 60 speed and .500 ba dont count,and my 85-88 mph fastball isnt the same as a DI kids,and i didnt play 25 games at DI this spring like Fairplays son did, LOL, and Oh, I did outhit all the DI kids on my summer travel team, but I know that doesn't count, because Fairplay says it doesn't)

I will agree that there are alot of tainted stats. Noticed one of the top BA in the Rep this week showed a kid hitting .580 with a .585 oba. Should usually be anywhere from a 75 to 200 pts different. Alot of stat people score FC and errors as hits, along with passed balls vs wild pitches, which effects era. Alot o f stats are done manually, which leads to lots of errors when coachs have to edit after game is over.

Wow monomon, you seem to be a very angry individual! I see that nobody can have a different opinion than yours or you get personal and name call. Wow. I still agree to a point with Fairplay. You can see my post above. I'll be waiting to see what sort of names you come up with for me. We don't have to agree with everybodys posts on here, but I think at least everybody is entitled to their own opinion! Nobody else made their posts as nasty as you, and I would say that there are more posters that do not agree with Fairplays post, but didn't come close to having the reaction that you did. :eek: He also generalized saying most, NOT ALL.

We all have boys that play ball on this website, that is why we are here. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. I don't see anywhere that the poster said those things. GEEZE. Get a grip.

[FI89]

The only difference is that the depth of pitching might be greater at a larger school. Other than that, the divisions are very comparable.

I would agree with the pitching depth Hometeam. Depth is always better at a larger school by virtue of the shear number of kids a program has to choose from. Remember though, pitching depth influences batting average, therefore, I would agree that batting averages of some players from lower divisions would be less if they had to compete against D1 teams for an entire season. However, the difference would not be as wide as was earlier stated. I think one might see a 50 point difference, but not a 200 - 300 point difference. That is an exaggeration.

Bottom line is, the better players (whether in a D1 program or D4) are playing on good summer ball teams in good summer leagues anyway, so therefore they are used to hitting against good pitching. A good summer ball team is better than a good HS team IMO.

[4luvofthegame]

The only difference is that the depth of pitching might be greater at a larger school. Other than that, the divisions are very comparable.

So are you saying that playing teams like East H.S is the same as playing teams like Alliance or Tallmadge?

[WoodyHayes]

Ouch ouch! :)
My son is not even batting .500 at D-4. That's a scary thought, I suppose that would put him at .100 if he was at one of those amazing D-1's. :blush:
And that's only if he was lucky...
I've seen enough D-1 to know that he'd probably be really lucky, just like his brother. Down here the best pitchers that I have seen come from 3A and 4A. If a kid can hit he can hit. I have got the privelege to see both pitchers and hitters that have went on to the show (not Minor) and believe me they could have competed against anyone. There is a little school down here called Hudson. No football team. Baseball is what they breathe. This team can play and compete with ANY school in TX. Not saying they would win them all but they would win many. same thing with Carthage and a few others. Well coached talented kids can play no matter who is on the other side. To say a 500 hitter drops to 200 is ridiculous.

[monomon]

Wow monomon, you seem to be a very angry individual! I see that nobody can have a different opinion than yours or you get personal and name call. Wow. I still agree to a point with Fairplay. You can see my post above. I'll be waiting to see what sort of names you come up with for me. We don't have to agree with everybodys posts on here, but I think at least everybody is entitled to their own opinion! Nobody else made their posts as nasty as you, and I would say that there are more posters that do not agree with Fairplays post, but didn't come close to having the reaction that you did. :eek: He also generalized saying most, NOT ALL.

We all have boys that play ball on this website, that is why we are here. You made a lot of assumptions in your post. I don't see anywhere that the poster said those things. GEEZE. Get a grip.


your right, i was a little harsh, and looked more angry then i actually was. I've been in both situations, and i just get tired of good players at small schools having to hear this crap all the time. My apolgies to you and fairplay, i was to harsh.:rainbow: question: what team only plays East High School? everyone has a few weaker opponents, i don't think its really what coachs and players want though. Some smaller schools cant get bigger schools to play them, and we've heard all the reasons and excuses before. It goes both ways, 2 sides to everything.

Its funny talking about some of the weaker teams, good hitters seem to struggle at times hitting this type of pitching. I've seen some fed pitchers that do quite well, who aren't hard throwers at all.

would also agree that you could maybe shave some points on or off, but i can guarantee you that a legit hs hitter hitting .400 an above wouldn't be sinking to .200 at DI. I'm sure there are maybe a few who aren't legit, but the vast majority, no.

[disappointed]

I have issues with an assigned parent keeping the books. At our school one of the mothers keeps the books, and although her son is leading the team in errors and the GMC, only errors at away games are marked in the stats. It's riduculous and maddening as a parent of another player that nothing is done about it. And this boy is the only player to play every inning of every game. He will pitch and then go to his position without ever icing his arm or taking any precautions. He is a great pitcher and can hit the crap out of the ball. He is not however, an infielder and the coach is buddy buddy with the boys mom and dad. So frustrating.

[Caju]

Comparing a D-1 player that is batting .500 to a D-4 player hitting .500 is a joke. Most of those D-4 players would be lucky to hit .200 if they played only against D-1 teams.

It really isn't a joke and you did say most... :) For any D-2, 3 or 4 player reading that statement, it is a slam. You may not have meant it as a slam and may NOT have any idea how far off that statement is. I have a son who batted .455 with a ton of doubles and a few homers at D-1 as a soph, and I find it real hard to believe he would've hit much better at a D-4 school.
In a D-1 league he should have been given league mvp twice, he had better numbers all the way around than the sr player it was given to his jr yr. His sr yr he left no doubt. My point is, he was no different than the kids at D-3 and 4. Just because he was at a d1 and league mvp didn't make him a better player and didn't make anyone else's stats a joke.
I'm not trying to start anything, just telling you how it sounds to a d4 player.:)

Side note: Having said all that doesn't mean I don't like you, just that I disagree with that assumption. :) You may well be someone I know and like a lot. Maybe I'll see you in summer ball...

[FI89]

The only real way to solve the risk of "bias" in keeping stats is for each conference to require an official scorer responsible for keeping the official book. Each scorer would need to be State certified and hired in the same process as the umpires are hired. After each game the official book would be reconciled with both the home and away books to resolve any discrepencies or disputes, but in the end, the official book would rule the day. This would add maybe $40 of cost to each game and the cost would be paid for by the home team.

How do you guys feel about that idea?

[thePITman]

The only real way to solve the risk of "bias" in keeping stats is for each conference to require an official scorer responsible for keeping the official book. Each scorer would need to be State certified and hired in the same process as the umpires are hired. After each game the official book would be reconciled with both the home and away books to resolve any discrepencies or disputes, but in the end, the official book would rule the day. This would add maybe $40 of cost to each game and the cost would be paid for by the home team.

How do you guys feel about that idea?

$40 x 25 = $1000

I doubt many schools, if any, would go for this just so accurate stats are taken. Find someone dependable at each school.

[FI89]

$40 x 25 = $1000

I doubt many schools, if any, would go for this just so accurate stats are taken. Find someone dependable at each school.

Who plays 25 home games in a season?? :shrug: I don't know of any HS programs playing 25 home games. The actual cost would would be 1/2 that.

I'm ok with finding someone "dependable", since that is pretty much the current process. The person picking the scorekeeper believes that person to be "dependable" anyway. Frankly, I don't care who a coach or AD taps to keep the official book in baseball, there will always be whining and complaining that the person chosen knows that person, or this person. My solution was meant to eliminate all the bitching and moaning.

[4luvofthegame]

question: what team only plays East High School? everyone has a few weaker opponents, i don't think its really what coachs and players want though. Some smaller schools cant get bigger schools to play them, and we've heard all the reasons and excuses before. It goes both ways, 2 sides to everything.

Its funny talking about some of the weaker teams, good hitters seem to struggle at times hitting this type of pitching. I've seen some fed pitchers that do quite well, who aren't hard throwers at all.

would also agree that you could maybe shave some points on or off, but i can guarantee you that a legit hs hitter hitting .400 an above wouldn't be sinking to .200 at DI. I'm sure there are maybe a few who aren't legit, but the vast majority, no.[/QUOTE]


Monomon when did I ever say only? I believe my post to say "schools like" as in for example.

Caju you said in your post, " I have a son who batted .455 with a ton of doubles and a few homers at D-1 as a soph, and I find it real hard to believe he would've hit much better at a D-4 school.
In a D-1 league he should have been given league mvp twice, he had better numbers all the way around than the sr player it was given to his jr yr. His sr yr he left no doubt. My point is, he was no different than the kids at D-3 and 4. Just because he was at a d1 and league mvp didn't make him a better player and didn't make anyone else's stats a joke."

So you are saying that this is the level of play for all d3-d4 players?

[IMHO]

The only stat that should matter in high school is winning and losing. PLayers play for their school - not themselves. It is either a W or an L and that is all that counts.

As for scouts. --- They will find the players that have the talent without looking at trumped up stats. College games are still going on - tough to get out since the colleges practice when they are not playing.

Summer ball and baseball camps provide many opportunities for exposure to players and showcase events provide the only stats necessary for recruiters. ( I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to choose focus on running times or radar guns as it is what it is and that is what is used as a measuring stick). Like it or not.

I have seen guys that post on here about trumped up stats that do the same thing for their players in summer ball. Obvious errors are hits, hits for the other teams are errors, pitch certain pitchers against teams you will obviously beat, hitters ballooning their stats against pitchers that are obviously a notch below in the telent department and bragging about it, etc. What is the difference? I guess some just see things differently. :shrug: I guess it depends on what your motivations are.

[BCMafia]

$40 x 25 = $1000

I doubt many schools, if any, would go for this just so accurate stats are taken. Find someone dependable at each school.

Anytime that you have a parent of a player get thier hands on the books you will run the risk of padded stats. I'm sure that there are some out there that will be straight up, but chances are pretty strong that if a dad who is a stat man or coach has the opportunity to give little Johnny a hit on a dropped fly ball he will do it. Take a look at the kid who is allegedly batting over .700 right now. At this rate he should be able to hit at least .275 in the big leagues right now, shouldnt he?

the additional cost would probably never be agreed on by the schools, but it would be the right thing to do in putting a totally unbiased, unattached person in charge of the stats. It will never happen though.

[all_about_hustle]

The only stat that should matter in high school is winning and losing. PLayers play for their school - not themselves. It is either a W or an L and that is all that counts.

As for scouts. --- They will find the players that have the talent without looking at trumped up stats. College games are still going on - tough to get out since the colleges practice when they are not playing.

Summer ball and baseball camps provide many opportunities for exposure to players and showcase events provide the only stats necessary for recruiters. ( I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to choose focus on running times or radar guns as it is what it is and that is what is used as a measuring stick). Like it or not.

I have seen guys that post on here about trumped up stats that do the same thing for their players in summer ball. Obvious errors are hits, hits for the other teams are errors, pitch certain pitchers against teams you will obviously beat, hitters ballooning their stats against pitchers that are obviously a notch below in the telent department and bragging about it, etc. What is the difference? I guess some just see things differently. :shrug: I guess it depends on what your motivations are.

Let's face it honesty isn't in everyone, more so with the person who has the pencil and the motive to "fudge" the numbers. Usually the same person telling their son on the way home what a great job he did, don't worry you will get em next time. Same person after their error saying it's ok, or when they struck out looking, they blame the umpire. I see it all the time it is quite comical.

[Caju]

question:

So you are saying that this is the level of play for all d3-d4 players?

Obviously it wasn't the level of most D-1 players and it may have been the level of some D3 and 4.:)

[Hometeam]

Let's face it honesty isn't in everyone, more so with the person who has the pencil and the motive to "fudge" the numbers. Usually the same person telling their son on the way home what a great job he did, don't worry you will get em next time. Same person after their error saying it's ok, or when they struck out looking, they blame the umpire. I see it all the time it is quite comical.

Nothing wrong with telling your son what a great job he did - heck, even the pros make errors. Even the pros strike out looking. And sometimes the umps ARE bad.

"Don't worry, you will get em next time" doesn't sound like such a bad thing to tell your kid at all. I'd call that encouragement. If you get down on your kid too hard for an error or a strikeout, you might turn them off from the game altogether.

So, actually I'm glad you see this all the time. It tells me that there ARE some supportive parents out there. It's not a bad thing.

[all_about_hustle]

Nothing wrong with telling your son what a great job he did - heck, even the pros make errors. Even the pros strike out looking. And sometimes the umps ARE bad.

"Don't worry, you will get em next time" doesn't sound like such a bad thing to tell your kid at all. I'd call that encouragement. If you get down on your kid too hard for an error or a strikeout, you might turn them off from the game altogether.

So, actually I'm glad you see this all the time. It tells me that there ARE some supportive parents out there. It's not a bad thing.

C'mon you can't compare to pros, thats a whole different level. I was not saying don't be supportive parents, but rather be somewhat honest as well. Meaning that dependent upon the level of play don't tell your son that had 4 errors and is only playing because he is related to the AD he is deserving.
This creates a no win for everyone, but the player is normally the one that suffers the most and is silent about it as well. You no what I mean.

[FI89]

C'mon you can't compare to pros, thats a whole different level. I was not saying don't be supportive parents, but rather be somewhat honest as well. Meaning that dependent upon the level of play don't tell your son that had 4 errors and is only playing because he is related to the AD he is deserving.
This creates a no win for everyone, but the player is normally the one that suffers the most and is silent about it as well. You no what I mean.

I don't think ANY parent tells their son he deserves to play over another player if they just made 4 errors in a game. If they do, they are deluded and in need of therapy.

Also, I would argue that the pros CAN be used as a comparison. Not to the level of play, but the fact that errors WILL happen, and even the best players in the world make mistakes. Baseball is a game of failure. The better players are able to deal with that failure and put it behind them.

For my son, I tell him to keep working hard and doing what he does best and to focus on the part(s) of his game that will differentiate him and earn him time on the field. Bottom line is, there will ALWAYS be kids on a team that will be favored, even though they are not as talented. That has been going on as long as there has been organized sports.

[all_about_hustle]

I don't think ANY parent tells their son he deserves to play over another player if they just made 4 errors in a game. If they do, they are deluded and in need of therapy.

Also, I would argue that the pros CAN be used as a comparison. Not to the level of play, but the fact that errors WILL happen, and even the best players in the world make mistakes. Baseball is a game of failure. The better players are able to deal with that failure and put it behind them.

For my son, I tell him to keep working hard and doing what he does best and to focus on the part(s) of his game that will differentiate him and earn him time on the field. Bottom line is, there will ALWAYS be kids on a team that will be favored, even though they are not as talented. That has been going on as long as there has been organized sports.

Well it happens and I guess it always will. Went to the FF vs Ham game last night and seen a couple of players that had at least 4 errors between them and costly ones at that. Was the difference in the game.

Agree with the rest of your post and it is right on. Nice insight.

[Hometeam]

Was watching the College World Series last year. Kid at 2nd base made 2 costly errors - and he hadn't made an error all season. It seems like when errors happen, they can come in bunches. And often at the worst time.

I know what you're saying - some kids ARE better than others - but you can't beat up on a kid (especially younger kids) when they make errors or strike out. It's all part of the learning process. Plus parents don't always know the situation - maybe that kid is playing at a base or position he doesn't normally play, maybe the field is bad, etc.

Now, if the kid IS only playing because he's related to the coach or AD and he's not a hardworker, then I agree with you - another player should be playing instead.

We've always had the attitude that errors will happen. It's just a "given" in baseball. This is why you need to have good hitters on the team - so the errors won't matter as much. It would be great to have perfect defense, but, unfortunately, even in the pros errors happen.

But if a kid IS struggling defensively, the parent could help him out by going to an empty field and hitting him grounders, etc. A kid DOES need to work at his game, whether it's by going to the cages and hitting, seeking instruction, etc.

[IMHO]

Was watching the College World Series last year. Kid at 2nd base made 2 costly errors - and he hadn't made an error all season. It seems like when errors happen, they can come in bunches. And often at the worst time.

I know what you're saying - some kids ARE better than others - but you can't beat up on a kid (especially younger kids) when they make errors or strike out. It's all part of the learning process. Plus parents don't always know the situation - maybe that kid is playing at a base or position he doesn't normally play, maybe the field is bad, etc.

Now, if the kid IS only playing because he's related to the coach or AD and he's not a hardworker, then I agree with you - another player should be playing instead.

We've always had the attitude that errors will happen. It's just a "given" in baseball. This is why you need to have good hitters on the team - so the errors won't matter as much. It would be great to have perfect defense, but, unfortunately, even in the pros errors happen.

But if a kid IS struggling defensively, the parent could help him out by going to an empty field and hitting him grounders, etc. A kid DOES need to work at his game, whether it's by going to the cages and hitting, seeking instruction, etc.

I think you must teach every aspect of the game being as important as the next. Perfect defense - of course it won't happen just as perfect hitting won't happen. Baseball is a game of failure. However - defense is a mind set. Players that want to play defense play defense. They want to have the ball hit to them. They get as much pleasure from making a great play as getting the big hit. They also put as much time taking grounders and practicing accurate and quick throws as they do hitting. Players that de-emphasize defense show it in their play. They think they make it up with their hitting but that is not the case. Defense is the difference between beating teams that are better than you and just coming close.

You sound like you watch alot of college baseball. Defense is usually what seperates the great college baseball teams from the good and the good from the average. Defense is an extention of your pitching and we all know that pitching wins in baseball. Hitters are not the ones that make up for errors, pitchers are the ones who have to limit the costliness of the error. Get the next out and that error isn't as costly.

[FI89]

I think you must teach every aspect of the game being as important as the next. Perfect defense - of course it won't happen just as perfect hitting won't happen. Baseball is a game of failure. However - defense is a mind set. Players that want to play defense play defense. They want to have the ball hit to them. They get as much pleasure from making a great play as getting the big hit. They also put as much time taking grounders and practicing accurate and quick throws as they do hitting. Players that de-emphasize defense show it in their play. They think they make it up with their hitting but that is not the case. Defense is the difference between beating teams that are better than you and just coming close.

You sound like you watch alot of college baseball. Defense is usually what seperates the great college baseball teams from the good and the good from the average. Defense is an extention of your pitching and we all know that pitching wins in baseball. Hitters are not the ones that make up for errors, pitchers are the ones who have to limit the costliness of the error. Get the next out and that error isn't as costly.

Cosign! Well said.

[Hometeam]

I think you must teach every aspect of the game being as important as the next. Perfect defense - of course it won't happen just as perfect hitting won't happen. Baseball is a game of failure. However - defense is a mind set. Players that want to play defense play defense. They want to have the ball hit to them. They get as much pleasure from making a great play as getting the big hit. They also put as much time taking grounders and practicing accurate and quick throws as they do hitting. Players that de-emphasize defense show it in their play. They think they make it up with their hitting but that is not the case. Defense is the difference between beating teams that are better than you and just coming close.

You sound like you watch alot of college baseball. Defense is usually what seperates the great college baseball teams from the good and the good from the average. Defense is an extention of your pitching and we all know that pitching wins in baseball. Hitters are not the ones that make up for errors, pitchers are the ones who have to limit the costliness of the error. Get the next out and that error isn't as costly.

Basically, we agree; however, I do think that good hitting can make up for errors somewhat. Unfortunately, you can't always count on good hitting, but it sure helps if you have it.

Sure, the pressure is on the pitcher when there are errors behind him, but there's also pressure on the pitcher when he doesn't have run support.

The ideal team is one who is great defensively and great offensively, but often that's hard to pull off. Just look at college ball - and even the pros.

[IMHO]

Basically, we agree; however, I do think that good hitting can make up for errors somewhat. Unfortunately, you can't always count on good hitting, but it sure helps if you have it.

Sure, the pressure is on the pitcher when there are errors behind him, but there's also pressure on the pitcher when he doesn't have run support.

The ideal team is one who is great defensively and great offensively, but often that's hard to pull off. Just look at college ball - and even the pros.


For college, I think it is difficult to get a great offensive and defensive team, except for the teams that compete for championships. For some reason there seems to be a trade-off. Offense for defense. Alluminum bats I am sure are part of it plus the fact that alot of the great pitchers are already in the pros but college ball is a very big offensive show. Unfortunately in my opinion that makes defense even MORE important as you can not afford to give up outs or an inning turns into a huge inning which you see alot in college ball.

My point on the pitcher is after errors he must concentrate on limiting the damage or a big inning occurs. Many pitchers get mad, lose focus, and an error or two turns into a big inning.

[all_about_hustle]

For college, I think it is difficult to get a great offensive and defensive team, except for the teams that compete for championships. For some reason there seems to be a trade-off. Offense for defense. Alluminum bats I am sure are part of it plus the fact that alot of the great pitchers are already in the pros but college ball is a very big offensive show. Unfortunately in my opinion that makes defense even MORE important as you can not afford to give up outs or an inning turns into a huge inning which you see alot in college ball.

My point on the pitcher is after errors he must concentrate on limiting the damage or a big inning occurs. Many pitchers get mad, lose focus, and an error or two turns into a big inning.

Goes back to the mental aspect of the game is just important as both the defense and offense. Better ptichers that remain focused will normally overcome such errors throughout a season. This just makes good hitting teams even better or defensive teams more noticable.

[Cuyahoga]

The Cleveland Plain Dealer had a nice article on a student from Parma who keeps accurate statistics for 27 teams.

http://ohiohssports.com/news/article/-3351217556074174739/strength-in-numbers-27-teams-700-players-a-high-school-senior-does-all-the-stats-and-does-it-well/

[MPkidPD]

There are too many of you to answer directly, but please be patient and read as I try to get to some of my opinions on these subjects....

1) Too many "students" and "players" are keeping book. Period. It is already a subjective task that allows "by rule" the official scorekeeper a lot of leeway when deciding the outcome of a play. The official Major League rule books states that ..."the official bookkeeper must give the benefit of the doubt to the batter...." Look it up. I also states that if a ball that is hit too hard or too soft it MAY NOT BE RULED and error if it does not allow the fielder to make the play under "normal effort". To then ask someone to keep accurate stats for their friends is tough....let alone if you are keeping stats for someone you don't like. The stat keeper should be a party without ties to the game...impartial.

2) Stats are a part of everything you do. But you only hear about them when sports are involved. Your pay from your employer is a stat. Your kids grades are stats. You work evaluations are stats. We are judged everyday on the STATS that we produce. H.S is no different

3) College coaches find prospective players one of three ways. They hear about them by word of mouth. They see them play or they SEE THEIR STATS AND GO WATCH THEM. I have an aquaintance that is an assistance coach at a NCAA Div 1 school and he has told me more than I can remember that he gets most of his prospects by word of mouth. Next is because they have seen the STATS of a players and went to see them play. They don't base their decision to sign or not sign a player based on those stats, but he definately said that the STATS are what get them initially interested in the player. He further stated that they can tell just by watching the player if they have the fundementals needed. Lastly, he gets many prospects by going to see one player and "noticing" another one at the game. Lastly, his school regularly signs HS players from ALL DIVISIONS.

4) There is no way you can tell me or make me believe that a lower division player can't play or "stand up" to a Div I player...stats or no stats....Take Canton Central Catholic - Are you telling me that their .400 and .500 hitters don't stand up to a Div I .400 or .500 hitter just because they are in DIV III? HA HA HA .... They I'll just tell you to look at their schedule. CCC (for example) plays a schedule made up of mostly DIV I (TOP END DIV I) schools. There are just as many WATERED DOWN pitching staffs in DIV I as there are in the other divisions. Don't tell me that playing a DIV I schedule doesnt help PAD STATS.

Oh, and I am from a DIV I school - FYI

[FI89]

Totally agree with you on your stats comments. Very true. I see way too many mistakes on hits/errors. The key is "normal effort".

I also agree with you to a certain extent about batting averages of lower division teams versus D1 players. However, I think you are forgetting that larger D1 schools, especially those that compete in a very good baseball conferences, have a much larger pool of players from which to draw. It's just a statistical fact that when a school has a larger talent pool from which to draw, they will have a deeper pitching staff. That means that a hitter from a D1 school will face better pitching over the course of a season.

The axiom is true... good pitching beats good hitting. In my opinion, a good D4 hitter will still be a good hitter in D1, but if they hit .450 in a schedule made up of mostly D4 schools, they will NOT hit .450 for an entire season if they faced D1 pitching. I don't however, believe the difference would be that great. Maybe 50 points at most. Keep in mind, if a player gets 70 at-bats in a season, the difference between .400 and .450 is only 4 hits. I have to believe that better/deeper pitching over the course of a season would make a 4 hit difference. It also stands to reason that if the talent pool would effect pitching, it would also produce better fielders, and more athletic ability. Collectively, all of that makes a difference. Faster, quicker, more athletic, better skilled players (no matter how subtle the difference) will get to some hits that lessor players couldn't resulting in an out, instead of an infield hit, or bloop single.

This isn't a slight against D4 players, I think it's just common sense.