Hitting Techniques Being Taught

[Middie 85 Alum]

I live in Illinois and I have a 12 year old boy that is preparing for High School Ball. What are the coaches teaching when it comes to hitting for the High Schools in SW Ohio. Stride/no stride/, placemnt of hands, ect. I am just curious how it compares to NW IL. Some out here teach no stride while others believe in it. Me personally I am for the stride. Thanks

[oldcrow]

dance with the pitcher. toe touch...load. lead with the elbow. hands inside the ball. hip rotation. hit off of a firm front leg. head down throughout. finish on front side. back toe heel up.

oldcrow

[Middie 85 Alum]

Thanks Oldcrow. Exactly the same I am teaching my boys. It is funny how the coaches I had when I was young were not really breaking down the swing as coaches do now.

[oldcrow]

yep... whole new ball game. much more power generated in the "modern" baseball - fastpitch swing. many of the greats have used this same swing for many many years. i still contend that the single most important part of the swing is the "head down". everything else breaks down when the head pulls out or doesn't trak to contact.

i'm a fastpitch dad. there are always great hitting discussions at this site.
real good stuff that transforms both games. do a search on "right view pro"
also good stuff.

http://www.game-ex.com/vb3/index.php

oldcrow

[Middie 85 Alum]

I coached both my boys when they were young, but when we moved to IL I stopped until this coming year. Thee coach quit on the team and since the league is a no draft league the boys had no where to go. I was scared that we would never be able to raise $8000 for the upcoming season. Jan just started and w alredy raised $6000, so I am very happy. I also turned my basement into a hitting cage. My furnance could take real baseballs, so I use golf ball and baseball size wiffe balls, a swingaway, and baseballs for soft toss to work on the kid's swings. I like some of the drills Dave Hudgens uses.

[Bud1024]

Anyone teaching the rotational swing? That seems to be noted at baseball combines if the player is using this type of swing.

[itsgone]

Two Epstein certified in Ohio:

Mark Grabau in Columbus: mgrabau@insight.rr.com
Dave Kajganich in Cleveland: dkajganich@roadrunner.com

[Middie 85 Alum]

Initially this intrigue me and had my son go to an Epstein certified instructor. Prior to him changing to a different technique, he was a good hitter. He had an avearge about .425, but he started to hit alot of ground balls and wasn't driving the ball like he use to. After reading everything I thought maybe this would help. On the contrary it put him in a huge slump. So after fall ball I strated to rethink everything and decided to stick with the old style he had.

I think the term he uses as rotational hitting is misleading. What most intructors teach is to rate the hips to create that power. The difference is where Epstein wants the elbow and have the player lean back. I am not xsaying this style doesn't work. It seems to work for alot of kids, but the problem you will run into is fighting against the high school and college coaches, if they are good enough to play in college. That was one of the things that went through my mind when we decided to stop the experiment.

If you decide to try Epstein, you have to make sure the player constatntly swings the bat evry day to get the muscle memory going. Good Luck

[itsgone]

Had a similar experience with a totally different outcome. Son was a good hitter, hit a slump with lots of ground balls and not much power and was looking for help. Difference being he was on a summer team where many had experience with rotational/Epstein hitting.

Bought the DVD's, used a local instructor, even had some time with Jake Epstein, and thousands of reps later he hits better than he ever did. Was 4th in a D1 conference in doubles as a 15 year old sophomore.

One of the best things to come out of this is my son's knowledge of hitting. When the instructors are telling him that this is just a different method as opposed to 'the' method, and that like any method it takes work (lots of work), and that some people are more naturally linear and some have a natural rotational swing it put him in the position of having to choose based on what he learned, felt, .... etc.

I hear you on the elbow position, I've talked to more than a few HS and college coaches that feel that high elbow leads to too many fly/pop outs, but that simply not taking the elbow so high and perhaps not meeting the ball directly on plane retains the benefits of rotational, but more line drives and ground balls. Epsteins methodology comes from pro players, very few HS players have that kind of power, and in the HS game (even college to be honest) hard hit ground balls have a better chance of being a hit than in the pros.

I don't get your comments on 'leaning back'. We've done a good deal of Epstein training and putting the swing on the same plane as the ball is taught, leaning back (at least directly) isn't.

What we get out of the term 'rotational' is defining of the torque created by leading with the hips opening while the top half of the body loads, followed by the bat rotating/exploding on the plane of the ball.

Rotational and Linear are different, just that. Sometimes learning another method will show you that the first one was best for you, sometimes you'll find something that works better for you.

[Middie 85 Alum]

I don't get your comments on 'leaning back'. We've done a good deal of Epstein training and putting the swing on the same plane as the ball is taught, leaning back (at least directly) isn't.


My son's instructor said since the ball is coming on a downward plane, you need to swing level with the plane of th the ball, so you will have a lean back some. It made sense and we even looked at video of pro players and they all seemed to have the lean back. I was really into the epstein style, but got scared when my son went backwards so quick and then I started 2nd guessing myself that I was messing his swing up. Now that I have been trying to go back to the old style he still trys to get his box with the front elbow up some.

[BENSPAPA8]

Anyone teaching the rotational swing? That seems to be noted at baseball combines if the player is using this type of swing.

Kindly DO NOT use this method. The hands do the hitting. Ask any Pro.

Find an instructor who emphasizes the use of the 5 point tee drill. From there, the necessary adjustments can be made.

Rotational methods create strikeouts, especially against better pitching who rarely serve up a meatball.

Expand your zone. Expand the use of the entire field.:cool:

[Middie 85 Alum]

Kindly DO NOT use this method. The hands do the hitting. Ask any Pro.

Find an instructor who emphasizes the use of the 5 point tee drill. From there, the necessary adjustments can be made.

Rotational methods create strikeouts, especially against better pitching who rarely serve up a meatball.

Expand your zone. Expand the use of the entire field.:cool:

Have you ever seen the teachings of Dave Hudgens. He use to be the hittting coach for some diffferent pro teams? I think tee work is forgettn alot and should be uses alot more. I am hoping the swingaway that allows the ball to be moves to different locations of the plate and rsets quick will help my boy get back to where he was prior to this season. Some of his drills are instresting to on having the plays work on statying back and waiting and not getting all their weight over the front leg. I just wish I didn't mess my boys swing up, but he is young enough to fix it.

[itsgone]

My son's instructor said since the ball is coming on a downward plane, you need to swing level with the plane of th the ball, so you will have a lean back some. It made sense and we even looked at video of pro players and they all seemed to have the lean back. I was really into the epstein style, but got scared when my son went backwards so quick and then I started 2nd guessing myself that I was messing his swing up. Now that I have been trying to go back to the old style he still trys to get his box with the front elbow up some.

Ok, I see what you meant.

The plane of the ball doesn't really go down that much, and making the adjustment with the back foot and 'leaning back' too much is just a mistake.

Whatever mechanics your son uses, number of reps is key.

[itsgone]

Kindly DO NOT use this method. The hands do the hitting. Ask any Pro.

Find an instructor who emphasizes the use of the 5 point tee drill. From there, the necessary adjustments can be made.

Rotational methods create strikeouts, especially against better pitching who rarely serve up a meatball.

Expand your zone. Expand the use of the entire field.:cool:

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

[runnaman24]

As a player I would use a tee every time before getting in a cage and/or soft toss. I am not big, so I would hit the gaps and use my hands most of the time. Whenever I help kids I always preach hands and head still because if you get fooled and keep your hands back, you can still hit the ball well. I could never watch for the spin of a ball so I would get many opposite field hits. I liked Derek Jeters stance, but I would lower my elbows compared to his.

Great hand and eye hitting stations could be hitting a birdie or small golf wiffle balls with a skinny bat or rod (3/4 in diameter). Soft toss from behind the batter. Toss 2 balls for soft toss at the same time from the same hand and while its in the air call a color or certain ball.

[BENSPAPA8]

Whatever mechanics your son uses, number of reps is key.

Unless they are bad mechanics?

Young hitters need to learn how to use the entire field, not how to hit for extra bases. Forget the strike-out happy rotational method. Most good hitters use a hybrid meaning their batting approach is a combination of several methods.

Ask anyone.

Prescribing to one method means the instructor is myopic or looking for a few buck$, or both.

Learn how to deliver the sweetspot to all fields first simply because as you advance in the game, the number of meatballs you see decreases.

In a bad count you better have the skills to work it. If you are pure rotational, get use to striking out or hitting weak grounders.

[Middie 85 Alum]

We are working on moving the tee around to work on different pitches. Once the swingaway is delivered will really help him with working on different pitches

[itsgone]

Unless they are bad mechanics?

You know I made a point in my posts of being particular that whether your linear or rotational (or even extension for that matter) that they are simply different methods or styles. Not downplaying any method, people are different. As you used myopic, I'd say arbitrarily excluding a style or method is definitely myopic.

Young hitters need to learn how to use the entire field, not how to hit for extra bases. Forget the strike-out happy rotational method. Most good hitters use a hybrid meaning their batting approach is a combination of several methods.

The key point here is young. More than 80% of the 'young' hitters aren't going to play beyond high school, they simply won't have the skill to play at the next level. In many cases what is 'good' in high school is not 'good enough' for the next level. It's true that you see as many or even more linear hitters up to and through high school, it's more difficult (requires a reaction time and hand/eye coordination that most at that age don't have) and instructors/coaches often don't understand that is a valid method (or are just myopic).

Rotational is not about hitting for extra bases, nor does it exclude the batter from taking the ball where it needs to go. I've seen many 'really good' hitters make the move to rotational, in all cases the strikeouts have gone down.

You use the term 'hybrid', popular today with the RVP and other debates. It's really a semantic issue. The RVP method says every swing is both linear and rotational, the first part with the body moving forward is the linear part, and the swing of the bat the rotational part. They'll sell you some nice software (have to have that camera and computer also) to look from a single point of view to make their point.

In rotational, the semantics are different. Whether you are linear or rotational is determined by the path of the hands from a top down view. In a linear swing the hands come straight across the body and the hips open with contact to the ball. Most linear hitters take the 'hands to the ball', so when you're holding the bat at shoulder height the hands are coming down until contact/breaking the bat, then come back up.

A rotational swing starts with the front heel coming down and the hips opening (lead with the hips) while the top half of the body is loading (top half of the body is actually going back and the bat is coming to shoulder height). Doesn't matter if you stride or not, stand open or closed, hold the bat high or low, that's style. From the hips opening and the load, the top half of the body then 'rotates' into the swing, the hands stay inside the ball, elbow nicely tucked, with the bat staying on the plane of the pitch.

From the rotational semantics, it's nigh but impossible to mix and match. That's not to say that there aren't variations in either method, but essentially you either swing linear or rotational.

The appeal to the hybrid methodology is that with less restrictive keys on the swing, it's pretty easy to classify either as a hybrid. The downside is that it doesn't teach the specific differences to the batter, and at the younger ages is where these differences should be taught and the batters evaluated to find which approach is most suitable.

Ask anyone.

We did, got as close to everyone as we could. My son had the luxury of playing for a college head coach 9-13, and in the very early years had taken some lessons from a very good linear instructor. The college coach is the one that started him on a rotational path and as it was new to us we asked everyone we could. Back then you didn't hear a lot about rotational at those ages, not much more even through high school. My son is in high school now, it's about 50-50 of the schools that we play whether they favor linear or rotational, with the better programs it's closer to 70-30 in favor of rotational. The most important point though is that the better to best programs, even if they favor rotational, don't force it on everyone, they recognize that they are different and neither is 'best' for everyone.

Prescribing to one method means the instructor is myopic or looking for a few buck$, or both.

I look at it a bit different. At the early ages or with players whose development is not at the highest levels, then you want an instructor that teaches both. Getting the batter to understand the differences is a huge advantage to keying on their swing and learning to self correct issues. At the right point in development though, why not go to the specialist to really work on the method you've chosen?

I mean if I feel sick I'm not going to call a brain surgeon and make an appointment. But once I've gone to my general practitioner and he tells me there's a chance I might have a brain tumor, you bet I'm going straight to the specialist.

Epstein instructors were our specialist, we didn't start with rotational with Epstein, but they certainly have been a significant portion of making it better. As I said in an earlier post, we don't hold with as high a leading elbow as Epstein teaches (we got this same feedback from a number of college coaches), but that's about the only difference. Sit through an Epstein lecture, you might find that the amount of variation in the rotational method is quite large (or style as the Epsteins call it).

Learn how to deliver the sweetspot to all fields first simply because as you advance in the game, the number of meatballs you see decreases.

You've used this same argument several times, take the time to learn something about rotational and you'll find out that just as much time is spent on this as any other method. You might also find that in most cases, if the batter has the right skills, in a rotational swing it's a bit easier to take it to any field. With the level of baseball we've been playing we really haven't seen meatballs for several years.

In a bad count you better have the skills to work it. If you are pure rotational, get use to striking out or hitting weak grounders.

We've literally spent years asking and listening to those in baseball about this method and that, and the one most important thing that we've learned is that anyone that says 'this method is best' or 'that method is bad' is someone that is either too stuborn to learn, incapable of learning, or just out for a quick buck and won't want to take the time to learn.

At no point have I said one method is better than the other because it really depends on the person. I'm not going to tell you this or that MLB or college player/team/program uses this method or that because I really don't care. What I do care about is my son's desire to play baseball. Baseball has many life lessons, but people often don't take ordinary life lessons and apply them to baseball; knowledge is key. So we learned all we could, and in this case my son decided that this was best and the results have been fantastic.

So for those people out there that are willing and want to learn, take a look at rotational.

[BENSPAPA8]

That's a lot to cram into .08 seconds. Good Luck.

This guy is on track

http://theartofbaseball.com/2008/06/07/rotational-versus-linear-baseball-batting-techniques.aspx

[itsgone]

You know if you search the internet you can find sites that tell you we didn't land on the moon, Nixon wasn't guilty, ......

Counter point from a non-Epstein point of view (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html)

[Caju]

Is it possible that the really good hitters adjust their swing to the pitch? It seems to me that some of the best hitters go linear on pitches away and on offspeed pitches that had them fooled for a micro second. That same hitter looks rotational on middle to inside fastballs. I don't think Manny cares if he goes linear or rotational, I've seen where it looked like he hit homeruns with both methods. He seems to have the ability to adjust to the pitch and hit the snot out of it. I think he uses the see the ball hit the ball hard method.:)

[BENSPAPA8]

That's right in a sense. The best hitters are hybrid, especially when that inside or middle pitch "somehow" starts breaking away with late movement. Many respected college hitting coaches equate pure rotational to 1/2 plate hitting.

[itsgone]

So we go from questioning rotational being able to 'cram' that method into '0.08' seconds to hybrids being able to switch methods at will?

If you're leading with the hips, you see it's outside, so you're going to keep you're shoulders closed while you do a linear swing? Or is it that you pick the ball up so quickly you know.....

It's a silly argument, mainly semantics and seeing what you want.

[BENSPAPA8]

The best hitters are hybrid in my opinion, and you say otherwise, so best to say everyone has their own methods that work.

[tatertot]

The guy in the youtube video from "The Art Of Hitting" is Kris Musselman. Did you know he is from right here in Cincinnati? Played for Midland back in the day.

[Caju]

Hitting is ALL about making adjustments, if you didn't need to make adjustments a blind man could hit, or you could wear a blindfold to hit. I believe most hitting instructors have good things to teach, but too many people make it so complicated and mechanical that we slow down and confuse our kids. We need to teach our kids to "swing hard","hit it where it's pitched", and hit the sweet spot. A good hitting coach can watch a kid and make small adjustments, and offer advice. But I get so frustrated when coaches try to make kids robots.

[BENSPAPA8]

too many people make it so complicated and mechanical that we slow down and confuse our kids. We need to teach our kids to "swing hard","hit it where it's pitched", and hit the sweet spot.

Goes back to the 5 tee drill.................great post

[Hometeam]

Some of the pros have what might be considered "bad" technique, yet they are successful hitters. It's all what works for you. See ball, hit ball.

[itsgone]

For those that believe there's at least some truth to the saying, "those that can't, teach", you might want to read this. (http://www.amazon.com/Science-Hitting-Ted-Williams/dp/0671621033)

[otis_p_wiley]

Guys, I have been reading these posts and the more and more I read the more I get agitated.:mad: Listen, I have been a player at a 4 year university, played pro ball, and have coached since my playing days were over in high school and at a D1 university. I also give private instruction to young prospective baseball players. I will say this, there is not a right or wrong (per say) way to hit. As an instructor and a coach, I will tweak things a little to help some kids, but NOT make them into "robots" as someone mentioned on here. Every kid is different with different body types, etc. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I make sure is that it FEELS GOOD to that particular individual. If it does not feel right THEY will FAIL! Let's face it, we all know that hitting is more mental than anything. If the player is NOT comfortable at the plate and is thinking about HOW BAD HE FEELS, then they will fail!

My point being this, a lot of these guys who advertise their product might look good on the internet but BE CAREFUL!

Don't look too much into this and ask yourself is my kid a "rotational" hitter or a "linear hitter". Make sure he has the basics and the rest will take care of itself. I know this is only an opinion but I had to get this off my chest!

[otis_p_wiley]

Guys, I have been reading these posts and the more and more I read the more I get agitated.:mad: Listen, I have been a player at a 4 year university, played pro ball, and have coached since my playing days were over in high school and at a D1 university. I also give private instruction to young prospective baseball players. I will say this, there is not a right or wrong (per say) way to hit. As an instructor and a coach, I will tweak things a little to help some kids, but NOT make them into "robots" as someone mentioned on here. Every kid is different with different body types, etc. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I make sure is that it FEELS GOOD to that particular individual. If it does not feel right THEY will FAIL! Let's face it, we all know that hitting is more mental than anything. If the player is NOT comfortable at the plate and is thinking about HOW BAD HE FEELS, then they will fail!

My point being this, a lot of these guys who advertise their product might look good on the internet but BE CAREFUL!

Don't look too much into this and ask yourself is my kid a "rotational" hitter or a "linear hitter". Make sure he has the basics and the rest will take care of itself. I know this is only an opinion but I had to get this off my chest!

[itsgone]

Guys, I have been reading these posts and the more and more I read the more I get agitated.:mad: Listen, I have been a player at a 4 year university, played pro ball, and have coached since my playing days were over in high school and at a D1 university. I also give private instruction to young prospective baseball players. I will say this, there is not a right or wrong (per say) way to hit. As an instructor and a coach, I will tweak things a little to help some kids, but NOT make them into "robots" as someone mentioned on here. Every kid is different with different body types, etc. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I make sure is that it FEELS GOOD to that particular individual. If it does not feel right THEY will FAIL! Let's face it, we all know that hitting is more mental than anything. If the player is NOT comfortable at the plate and is thinking about HOW BAD HE FEELS, then they will fail!

My point being this, a lot of these guys who advertise their product might look good on the internet but BE CAREFUL!

Don't look too much into this and ask yourself is my kid a "rotational" hitter or a "linear hitter". Make sure he has the basics and the rest will take care of itself. I know this is only an opinion but I had to get this off my chest!

Thank you!

[JUSTGOPLAY]

Guys, I have been reading these posts and the more and more I read the more I get agitated.:mad: Listen, I have been a player at a 4 year university, played pro ball, and have coached since my playing days were over in high school and at a D1 university. I also give private instruction to young prospective baseball players. I will say this, there is not a right or wrong (per say) way to hit. As an instructor and a coach, I will tweak things a little to help some kids, but NOT make them into "robots" as someone mentioned on here. Every kid is different with different body types, etc. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I make sure is that it FEELS GOOD to that particular individual. If it does not feel right THEY will FAIL! Let's face it, we all know that hitting is more mental than anything. If the player is NOT comfortable at the plate and is thinking about HOW BAD HE FEELS, then they will fail!

My point being this, a lot of these guys who advertise their product might look good on the internet but BE CAREFUL!

Don't look too much into this and ask yourself is my kid a "rotational" hitter or a "linear hitter". Make sure he has the basics and the rest will take care of itself. I know this is only an opinion but I had to get this off my chest!

Great post otis.......Back in the old days, before teaching kids to play ball became a multi million dollar industry, hitting a baseball was a fairly simple process. Some guys were good at it, some guys were not. All my life I thought a hitch in your swing was a bad thing, now they call it a trigger and it is a good thing. As complex as we try to make it, baseball is still a very simple game.

[scott873]

see the ball hit the ball