Safety in baseball?

[Bearly Breathing]

This was a topic today in the local paper. It discussed helmets for infielders. It also discussed such things as knee savers for catchers. I wish though to focus in on the metal bat vs. wood bat issue. This is one close to my heart but I would like other opinions.

I favor wood bats in all play but especially in 13 and over summer ball leagues and high school as well as college. I know one of the arguments is that it is to expensive for the teams to use wood. The fact that wood bats can break more easily than metal bats. I saw the Walsh coach wondered if wood would not be to expensive as that was a downfall when he wanted to use wood.

I played with wood bats and many of us had our own bats just like the kids today. I know a father could buy a lot of wood bats for his son versus one 400 dollar metal bat. The ball does not come off at the same speed with wood due to the trampoline effect the metal bats have. The balls would not travel as far but I see that as not a huge drawback. My son at 10 lined a shot back up the middle that hit the opposing pitcher very near his eye. The kid pitching was a very good athlete but was unable to handle the speed the ball came back. It was a scary situation. I also as a coach and father found it somewhat scary when my son pitched as until he injured his arm he has very good speed for his age. The ball at times would fly off the bat. I know pitchers can get hit even with wood bats as I lined a shot off a pitchers head when I was 12 and we definitely used wood bats. He had a concussion I wonder if I would have killed him with metal. ( yes I am that old)

I also think just for the game itself wood should be the material of choice. Pitcher would be rewarded for sawing off bat handles not see good pitches hit for home runs off the handle. They would learn to pitch on both halves of the plate. The fences could be moved in if that was needed but the game would be safer and the true skill in the game would be returned.

I would like comments form coaches and players as well as parents. I see this as a no lose situation for all involved. The other protective gear is something I am not sure about. The helmet for pitchers and infielders would be fine if it did not interfere with the vision. I still say one of the easiest ways to restore safety is the use of wood bats.

[PACrat]

This was a topic today in the local paper. It discussed helmets for infielders. It also discussed such things as knee savers for catchers. I wish though to focus in on the metal bat vs. wood bat issue. This is one close to my heart but I would like other opinions.

I favor wood bats in all play but especially in 13 and over summer ball leagues and high school as well as college. I know one of the arguments is that it is to expensive for the teams to use wood. The fact that wood bats can break more easily than metal bats. I saw the Walsh coach wondered if wood would not be to expensive as that was a downfall when he wanted to use wood.

I played with wood bats and many of us had our own bats just like the kids today. I know a father could buy a lot of wood bats for his son versus one 400 dollar metal bat. The ball does not come off at the same speed with wood due to the trampoline effect the metal bats have. The balls would not travel as far but I see that as not a huge drawback. My son at 10 lined a shot back up the middle that hit the opposing pitcher very near his eye. The kid pitching was a very good athlete but was unable to handle the speed the ball came back. It was a scary situation. I also as a coach and father found it somewhat scary when my son pitched as until he injured his arm he has very good speed for his age. The ball at times would fly off the bat. I know pitchers can get hit even with wood bats as I lined a shot off a pitchers head when I was 12 and we definitely used wood bats. He had a concussion I wonder if I would have killed him with metal. ( yes I am that old)

I also think just for the game itself wood should be the material of choice. Pitcher would be rewarded for sawing off bat handles not see good pitches hit for home runs off the handle. They would learn to pitch on both halves of the plate. The fences could be moved in if that was needed but the game would be safer and the true skill in the game would be returned.

I would like comments form coaches and players as well as parents. I see this as a no lose situation for all involved. The other protective gear is something I am not sure about. The helmet for pitchers and infielders would be fine if it did not interfere with the vision. I still say one of the easiest ways to restore safety is the use of wood bats.

I agree. Why not start using wood if safety is the issue? It would also make the hitters better in the long run.

[thePITman]

I respectfully disagree. I really don't see the need for wooden bats as opposed to metal bats. Freak things can happen in any sport. Are we going to eliminate contact from football to reduce the amount of spinal cord and neck injuries? How about make the tennis court skinnier so there aren't as many sprianed ankles? Full body suits must be worn for lacrosse? Eliminate kickboxing and MMA altogether? Take away sliding kicks/tackles from soccer and eject players automatically? No more car-to-car contact in Nascar? Put more safety/seat belt options on horses' backs? As for helmets on infielders and such, I definitely think that is a no-no. We're talking about baseball, not nursery room whiffle ball.

[PACrat]

I respectfully disagree. I really don't see the need for wooden bats as opposed to metal bats. Freak things can happen in any sport. Are we going to eliminate contact from football to reduce the amount of spinal cord and neck injuries? How about make the tennis court skinnier so there aren't as many sprianed ankles? Full body suits must be worn for lacrosse? Eliminate kickboxing and MMA altogether? Take away sliding kicks/tackles from soccer and eject players automatically? No more car-to-car contact in Nascar? Put more safety/seat belt options on horses' backs? As for helmets on infielders and such, I definitely think that is a no-no. We're talking about baseball, not nursery room whiffle ball.

Well, you can no longer spear in football, protecting against neck injuries. Jockey's are now wearing protective vests. Nascar controls the horsepower of cars for safety. But each year in high school and college baseball, new bat technology allows the ball to come off the bat harder. I think we need to start by going back to wood bats. Helmets for infielders errrrrrr..... no. **My concern is for the pitcher.

[Cattani]

Wooden bats are needed. What happens when you have some GREAT high school/college players.............they get into WOODEN BAT TOURNAMENTS/LEAGUES. Why is that? Because if they are that good, they have to go to wooden bats at some point. Why not teach kids to use wood from day one? It would be much more beneficial to the player and the game to use wood.

[itsgone]

The wood vs. metal bat comes up a lot, of the few actual studies that have been done (or the ones that I've seen) they seem to state that the ball doesn't really come off of a metal bat harder (or that much harder). This issue is that the 'sweet' spot of a metal bat is significantly larger than that of a wood bat, so you see a lot more hard hits with metal vs. wood.

Difficult argument.

[BlueFan82]

Some interesting facts from Little League (http://www.littleleague.org/media/FactSheet.pdf)

[jacmckvik]

Some interesting facts from Little League (http://www.littleleague.org/media/FactSheet.pdf)

Hog wash! Who do you think funds these leagues? Who do you think are there biggest sponsors? The same people who would sell you the protective gear for fielders is the same one who sells you the $400.00 bat.This as all the local little leagues scramble to move their fences back at their own cost or there not in compliance! Don't think they need to with wood!

[BlueFan82]

Hog wash! Who do you think funds these leagues? Who do you think are there biggest sponsors? The same people who would sell you the protective gear for fielders is the same one who sells you the $400.00 bat.This as all the local little leagues scramble to move their fences back at their own cost or there not in compliance! Don't think they need to with wood!

You have a point. I was just putting it out there. I am a fan of wooden bats, BTW..but I still look on ebay the newest composite alloy with space age "pop"

[pnthrz4life]

Wood bats are the way to go. They would not only increase safety, but they would more importantly make the game a better product. I hate when pitchers make a great pitch and a hitter is out in front and consequently bloops it opp the end into the outfield. Metal bats are actually produced to be able to do this! They are produced to be able to get hits off of the handle as well! Wood bats make the game more fun to play and makes it more rewarding developing the bat-wielding powers.

Also, helmets and facemasks for infielders and pitchers are ludicrous! It is completely unnecessary, but kids could still wear them if they wish ala Jon Olerud. The facemask would mess with depth perception way too much as the infielder would need to consistently refocus his eyes with the interfering mask.

[BENSPAPA8]

The cost to manufacture a metal bat is $30, and sells for $400 leaving a gross profit of $370 per bat.

The cost to manufacture a wood bat is $30, and sells for $60 leaving a gross profit of $30.

The bat manufacturers would be losing their collective "license to steal" from the baseball bat paying customers if a mandate to wood bats was issued or agreed upon by all involved user groups.

Wood bats are the only way to play it IMO, but it all comes down to money/greed........................

[PACrat]

Some interesting facts from Little League (http://www.littleleague.org/media/FactSheet.pdf)

Does anyone know why we make a batter wear a helmet when a ball is thrown 90 mph towards him, when we don't make a pitcher wear one when that ball can come back at him at 110 mph, and it is the same distance? Just curious!

[itsgone]

The cost to manufacture a metal bat is $30, and sells for $400 leaving a gross profit of $370 per bat.

The cost to manufacture a wood bat is $30, and sells for $60 leaving a gross profit of $30.

In all honesty, you have something to back this up?

[pnthrz4life]

It is basically true itsgone. Baseball bats are hollow and the metal used to make it does not cost anywhere near the true sale price. In fact, it is not very expensive. Most of the cost of metal bats is due to the research and advertising. Also the cost of metal bats must cover the warranty as many parents I know send bats back multiple times when they are believed to be "broken" or they lose their pop. Wood bats can't cost nearly as much as there is no warranty, and high school students in shop class can make a decent wooden bat for $10.

[itsgone]

It is basically true itsgone. Baseball bats are hollow and the metal used to make it does not cost anywhere near the true sale price. In fact, it is not very expensive. Most of the cost of metal bats is due to the research and advertising. Also the cost of metal bats must cover the warranty as many parents I know send bats back multiple times when they are believed to be "broken" or they lose their pop. Wood bats can't cost nearly as much as there is no warranty, and high school students in shop class can make a decent wooden bat for $10.

Wow, the cost to manufacture is only the cost of the materials, plus something for the warranty? Granted you acknowledge R&D/marketing, but that's a rather simplistic view of the process. Having a number of friends that work for HB and having seen the production lines I'll just disagree and suggest you investigate a bit further.

I'm very much for safety, and if want to 'regulate' how a ball comes off of a bat, it can be done much easier and more safely with metal than wood, and in the end, be less expensive to the user.

[Hakko936]

For those interested in the actual BESR testing, the link below is to the facility that does the testing.

http://m-5.eng.uml.edu/umlbrc/ncaa_certified_bats.asp

There is also a white paper describing the parameters of the test.

http://m-5.eng.uml.edu/umlbrc/Publications/BESR%20White%20Paper.pdf

[Bearly Breathing]

I would just like to thank people for the response. I also do not agree with helmets for the players in the field but ideas such as break away bases would not be bad. I think wood for the safety and the true skill in the game is the way to go. I do know youth leagues in New York have gone to wood bats.

[AllSports12]

I'm hate aluminum bats, but not for the reasons of safety or cost.

The aluminum bat gives an unfair advantage to the batter. The hitting zone increases without the strike zone increasing.

If he swings at a borderline pitch and makes contact, he has a better chance for a base hit than if he did the same with a wood bat. If he chooses not to swing, there is a good chance the pitch will be called a ball.

The pitcher now throws the next pitch a couple of inches more inside or outside and it is no longer borderline, but an easy take for the hitter, an easy call for the umpire, and another ptich for the pitcher.

Dozens of studies have been (and are being) conducted as to the safety of the bats. (The -3 provisions have satisfied many on both sides of the fence, but in my opinion, more has to be done) The studies, just like many other sports related studies (astro-turf, baseball composition, etc) have results that are inconclusive as to directly linking injury to the bat.

As for the cost comparisons, a ban on the aluminum bat will cause wood bat prices to skyrocket, bringing us full circle on this matter.

The manufacturers and the governing bodies need to come to a uniform set of guidelines that allow the bats to perform alike, thus not giving an advantage to anyone.

[BENSPAPA8]

The manufacturers and the governing bodies need to come to a uniform set of guidelines that allow the bats to perform alike, thus not giving an advantage to anyone.

thats called the "black magic"

itsgone says..............."Wow, the cost to manufacture is only the cost of the materials, plus something for the warranty? Granted you acknowledge R&D/marketing, but that's a rather simplistic view of the process. Having a number of friends that work for HB and having seen the production lines I'll just disagree and suggest you investigate a bit further."

Unless your friends are the CFO and President of HB, just get a 10K report. The IRS for tax purposes require manufacturers to defer expense and allocate costs to inventory, even administrative expenses as a mechanism for tax revenues. A Publicly traded company is all about showing a profit. Even after certain R&D cost allocations, the production becomes a simple tool and jig function, aka cheap.

The LS factory tour only handles the wood bats, and the turns are 99% computerized, aka cheap, and they have their own crop of wood.

Testing is bull. You can read all the results held by the controlled NCAA lab, but the real experts came to a different conclusion.

5'9" 155lb players are not meant to exceed 400 feet in hitting distance very often. Just go to any collegiate woodbat summer baseball league site and review the batting averages and power stats. Numbers don't lie, propaganda prevails.

The Cape Cod League in 2007 had a league batting average of .240

Gas prices are $4/gal with 50 years of reserves sitting on the Gulf Coast

[AllSports12]

5'9" 155lb players are not meant to exceed 400 feet in hitting distance very often. Just go to any collegiate woodbat summer baseball league site and review the batting averages and power stats. Numbers don't lie, propaganda prevails.

The Cape Cod League in 2007 had a league batting average of .240

Exactly......

This all started with slo-pitch softball.

All of a sudden, the Al Bundy's of the world could finally hit a ball out of the ballpark. The bat manufacturers worked at breakneck speed manufacturing bats that did more for male enhancement than Enzyte could ever imagine.

Once they started to see the plateau in softball, they focused on baseball, and the bottom line.......

[ColerainWinsAgain]

Does anyone know why we make a batter wear a helmet when a ball is thrown 90 mph towards him, when we don't make a pitcher wear one when that ball can come back at him at 110 mph, and it is the same distance? Just curious!

Because all the batter has for protection is the helmet, and with EVERY pitch there's the possibility that the ball gets away from the pitcher and hits the batter. The pitcher has a glove on his non-throwing hand and when a ball is hit it can go anywhere, meaning that 95% + of the time it won't be hit hard straight back at the pitcher.

[itsgone]

itsgone says..............."Wow, the cost to manufacture is only the cost of the materials, plus something for the warranty? Granted you acknowledge R&D/marketing, but that's a rather simplistic view of the process. Having a number of friends that work for HB and having seen the production lines I'll just disagree and suggest you investigate a bit further."

Unless your friends are the CFO and President of HB, just get a 10K report. The IRS for tax purposes require manufacturers to defer expense and allocate costs to inventory, even administrative expenses as a mechanism for tax revenues. A Publicly traded company is all about showing a profit. Even after certain R&D cost allocations, the production becomes a simple tool and jig function, aka cheap.

The LS factory tour only handles the wood bats, and the turns are 99% computerized, aka cheap, and they have their own crop of wood.

Testing is bull. You can read all the results held by the controlled NCAA lab, but the real experts came to a different conclusion.

5'9" 155lb players are not meant to exceed 400 feet in hitting distance very often. Just go to any collegiate woodbat summer baseball league site and review the batting averages and power stats. Numbers don't lie, propaganda prevails.

The Cape Cod League in 2007 had a league batting average of .240

Gas prices are $4/gal with 50 years of reserves sitting on the Gulf Coast

The LS 'factory tour' is in Louisville, KY. Yes, been there, nothing metal as you say. The Loomis and Ontario, CA plants on the other hand are where the H&B metal technology is in the US. (Ontario is closing this summer and no metal bats will be produced in the US, H&B or any other manufacturer) Loomis is the R&D site, and while the cost to operate may not be reflected as a direct expense to cost of goods sold, don't for a second equate that to $370 profit for every $400 bat, nor because capital additions are carried on the balance sheet as opposed to the income statement, don't think that all the equipment or 'jigs' are free either.

And who are the 'real experts' and what/where are their conclusions?

The poster that said metal bats favor the hitter has the only valid argument to wood bats, the larger sweet spot.

[Yellow_Jacket06]

IMO...Whatever happened to just playing the game?

Everyone is so damn safety-conscious now a days, and you wonder why the new Generation is so soft compared to the old days.

To force every league, & High School to goto wood bats would be preposterous.

[BENSPAPA8]

IMO...Whatever happened to just playing the game?

Everyone is so damn safety-conscious now a days, and you wonder why the new Generation is so soft compared to the old days.

To force every league, & High School to goto wood bats would be preposterous.

most kids have thier own bat.................you can get a dozen wood bats for one rocket launcher

[itsgone]

Lets agree metal bats inflate hitting production, mostly for marginal hitters.
If they didn't, the MLB and their farm systems wouldn't be 50% foreign born and cheap.

Agree, never argued that.

We can talk all the accounting you want to, but sporting good companies have been selling first, $400 drivers that cost peanuts to make, and now dupe the american baseball public into paying $400 for the same crapola baseball bats, supposedly limited in performance, with a new paint job every year applied to it.

While there is way too much marketing hype about pop, trampoline effect, etc., metal/composite bats while expensive, do offer savings compared to wood bats. Metal/composite bats are limited in performance in that the ball comes off the bat comparable to a wood bat. Metal/Composite bats are superior to wood in that the 'sweet spot' is considerably larger. Ball isn't hit harder, just a much greater chance of a hard hit.

I hope you own stock in your staunch defense of the metal bat industry. Numbers don't lie. If it wasn't for the metal bats most of the secondary bat mfg's would have filed bankruptcy years ago. Blame the NCAA also when they folded in the Easton lawsuit 10 years ago.

METAL BATS ARE ROCKET LAUNCHERS.........PERIOD, AND

EXTREMELY PROFITABLE.

Metal/composite bats are so profitable because the barriers to entry in the market are considerable. Anyone with a lathe and some skill can make a first class wood bat, it's not quite as easy to come up with a metal bat in the garage. Few manufacturers 'own' the market.

This thread started on safety, and there have been a number of lawsuits where the premise of the argument is that metal/composite bats are a danger because the ball is hit so much harder. That's been proven false time and time again.

There's no question that there are more hard hits when metal bats are used, and if that's a safety consideration there are at least 2 quick ways to fix it:

Let the various governing bodies do what both the NCAA and NFHS have done and standardize drop, say -5 for 12U to 14U, and -8 for younger.

If you want to go beyond safety and take the game back closer to it's roots, then you can develop standards to take the sweet spot back to a smaller area. The argument against this will be that most agree that larger sweet spot actually helps youth players get better, and develop over time to where they can use wood. They stay in the game longer.

When MLB can experiment with the baseball itself (core and windings) to try and 'liven up the game', what's the difference? Golf standardized the dimples on golf balls when technology threatened to change the game too much, there's ample precedence to regulate technology in baseball.

And for the record, I'm split on the metal vs wood decision, but it has nothing to do with safety.

[BENSPAPA8]

you win............go collect your trophy

[OSUSTAR1991]

some parents are making to big deal out of this if your to scared to get hurt then dont play its part of the game

[gobucks42]

What is wrong with metal bats? Freak accidents happen in sports. You can buy a metal bat for 200-300 dollars that will last you 2-3 years, where as for one season of 55-65 games you would buy multiple wood bats that would add up. I also think that anyone wearing helmetsi n the field should be stricly optional.

[BENSPAPA8]

What is wrong with metal bats? Freak accidents happen in sports. You can buy a metal bat for 200-300 dollars that will last you 2-3 years, where as for one season of 55-65 games you would buy multiple wood bats that would add up. I also think that anyone wearing helmetsi n the field should be stricly optional.

Thanks Dad for the new TPX, but they made it even better this year, so my nextbat only cost $400 bucks.............you like that new color??

I need it to have a good season.............lol

[Hakko936]

Testing is bull. You can read all the results held by the controlled NCAA lab, but the real experts came to a different conclusion.

Please define "real experts".

[PACrat]

Exactly......

This all started with slo-pitch softball.

All of a sudden, the Al Bundy's of the world could finally hit a ball out of the ballpark. The bat manufacturers worked at breakneck speed manufacturing bats that did more for male enhancement than Enzyte could ever imagine.

Once they started to see the plateau in softball, they focused on baseball, and the bottom line.......

Who are you calling Al Bundy?
Sincerely,
Bob:)

[itsgone]

Please define "real experts".

I also asked that earlier but never got an answer.

[Hometeam]

Wood bats should start being used at the high school level. This is when the boys have the strength to rocket the ball out of the ballpark. Also, using a wood bat separates the good hitters from the not-so-good hitters. Definitely, wood bats should be used in college.

You hear all this talk about metal bats being no different than wood and how metal bats are being "dumbed down" to prevent injuries. I don't believe this for a minute. There's the "trampoline effect" and the bigger sweet spot for the metal bats so the ball is definitely coming off the metal faster and harder, with the possible risk of injury to a pitcher. Like I said - use wood. It makes you a better hitter anyway.

[Yellow_Jacket06]

Wood bats should start being used at the high school level. This is when the boys have the strength to rocket the ball out of the ballpark. Also, using a wood bat separates the good hitters from the not-so-good hitters. Definitely, wood bats should be used in college.

You hear all this talk about metal bats being no different than wood and how metal bats are being "dumbed down" to prevent injuries. I don't believe this for a minute. There's the "trampoline effect" and the bigger sweet spot for the metal bats so the ball is definitely coming off the metal faster and harder, with the possible risk of injury to a pitcher. Like I said - use wood. It makes you a better hitter anyway.

You either hit or you don't...It doesn't matter if you use a Bat or Stick.

[DennyCrane]

In the safety aspect of baseball, the bat is much more of an issue other than the infielders helmet/faceguard.

This is from personal experience. Once I switched from playing with an aluminum bat to a wood bat, I found that you had to be a much better hitter to hit with a wood bat. Much less sweet spot that bloop singles were now outs. High fly balls that carried to the gaps were now routine outs.

As for the price, I spent 120 dollars on a wood COMPOSITE bat and used the bat for 2 years (roughly 150 at-bats/roughly 50 hits with foul balls) and it NEVER broke. I used a team wood composite bat for batting practice (80 dollars) for those same two years and never had a problem.

I compare aluminum bats to steroids in MLB. It makes bad players decent, average players good, and good players great. It provides a false sense of how good the player really is.

Using wood bats in high school and college can be done and would make the game better.

[Hometeam]

You either hit or you don't...It doesn't matter if you use a Bat or Stick.

It's more difficult to hit when you use a wood bat.

[Hometeam]

In the safety aspect of baseball, the bat is much more of an issue other than the infielders helmet/faceguard.

This is from personal experience. Once I switched from playing with an aluminum bat to a wood bat, I found that you had to be a much better hitter to hit with a wood bat. Much less sweet spot that bloop singles were now outs. High fly balls that carried to the gaps were now routine outs.

As for the price, I spent 120 dollars on a wood COMPOSITE bat and used the bat for 2 years (roughly 150 at-bats/roughly 50 hits with foul balls) and it NEVER broke. I used a team wood composite bat for batting practice (80 dollars) for those same two years and never had a problem.

I compare aluminum bats to steroids in MLB. It makes bad players decent, average players good, and good players great. It provides a false sense of how good the player really is.

Using wood bats in high school and college can be done and would make the game better.


Great posting! I agree with you 100%!