Pitch Counts Guidelines

[HWCUSA]

I've read several guidelines about pitch counts. I know there are differences of opinion on this topic, so I'd like to share something I've observed this year in High School Baseball.
I'm not going to mention any teams, schools, or names.
We played a team this year, last week. We won the game 32-0. The opposing starting pitcher pitched 2 innings facing 36 batters. He walked at least 10 batters and he/his team gave up 28 runs in just two innings. The coach didn't even make a trip to the mound until the second inning when we were up by 20 runs.
This week (6 days later) we played the same team again. This same pitcher started again. He pitched to about 38 batters and the entire game. We won this game 18-2. The coach of this team made a trip to the mound only after we were ahead by 10 runs.
I don't know the actual pitch count but I know the first game it was over 150 pitches in 2 innings and the second game (6 days later) he pitched over 130 pitches in 5 innings.
Am I missing something here by saying this is a gross neglect of duty (abuse) by not only the coach but also the parents of this young 15 year old kid? Is there anything I should or could have done to stop it? Or is it just none of my business?
Any thoughts or input?

[earholem]

I've read several guidelines about pitch counts. I know there are differences of opinion on this topic, so I'd like to share something I've observed this year in High School Baseball.
I'm not going to mention any teams, schools, or names.
We played a team this year, last week. We won the game 32-0. The opposing starting pitcher pitched 2 innings facing 36 batters. He walked at least 10 batters and he/his team gave up 28 runs in just two innings. The coach didn't even make a trip to the mound until the second inning when we were up by 20 runs.
This week (6 days later) we played the same team again. This same pitcher started again. He pitched to about 38 batters and the entire game. We won this game 18-2. The coach of this team made a trip to the mound only after we were ahead by 10 runs.
I don't know the actual pitch count but I know the first game it was over 150 pitches in 2 innings and the second game (6 days later) he pitched over 130 pitches in 5 innings.
Am I missing something here by saying this is a gross neglect of duty (abuse) by not only the coach but also the parents of this young 15 year old kid? Is there anything I should or could have done to stop it? Or is it just none of my business?
Any thoughts or input?

In OHIO and in April, no pitcher should exceed 90 pitches, and that's if he has been throwing all winter somewhere.

[BgStck45]

Yeah, I agree... Some pitchers are different than others, but 90 pitches in April is about right.

Unless you don't plan on using him in May...:shrug:

[GCPRO]

I would suggest there is no high schooler any where that should exceed 90-100 pitches at any time. Regardless of the their throwing program. For those that say kids need to throw more than they already do, I owuld suggest that kids need to throw more often, not more throwing at one time.

[Hakko936]

I always look at pitches per inning and proper rest along with total pitch count. I think a struggling pitcher is harder on his arm than one who is having a good day.

Two things I think coaches have to be willing to do are rest the kids well if you are going to run 90-100 pitch counts and listen to the kid if he says he is hurting or not recovering well from his last outing.

Kids are often eager to please the coach and will continue in pain or not tell the coach that the recovery is not going well. Kids too stubborn to reveal pain are just as bad as coaches/parents who don't care that a kid is hurting or not recovering from the last outing.

I would love to see OHSAA change from a maximum innings to a maximum pitch count with mandated rest based on the number of pitches thrown. The current rule of 10 innings in three days does little to require coaches to not overuse pitchers.

[IMHO]

Wow!!!! Exceeding 90-100 pitches in high school is way too much. Remember that kid also warms up before the game and throws at least 8 pitches before every inning so a pitcher throwing 90 pitches in a 5 inning game probably actually throws 160-170 pitches giving 30 pitches in the bull pen warming up and 8 pitches in between innings.

How many pitchers in high school are on a thorwing program and/or a running program after starts and in between starts that includes long toss or something like that?

In the example that started this thread - that is rediculous and it appears anybody on the team could do the same job on the mound that kid is so there really isn't any excuse for constantly pitching him and abusing his arm.

[itsa3]

Wow!!!! Exceeding 90-100 pitches in high school is way too much. Remember that kid also warms up before the game and throws at least 8 pitches before every inning so a pitcher throwing 90 pitches in a 5 inning game probably actually throws 160-170 pitches giving 30 pitches in the bull pen warming up and 8 pitches in between innings.

How many pitchers in high school are on a thorwing program and/or a running program after starts and in between starts that includes long toss or something like that?

In the example that started this thread - that is rediculous and it appears anybody on the team could do the same job on the mound that kid is so there really isn't any excuse for constantly pitching him and abusing his arm.


The sad part is I have seen numerous kids exceed that already this year. There are some very good coaches out there who may truly be smart enough and care enough to know their pitchers limitations. BUT......there are very very few smart coaches at the HS ranks. Walsh, Tallamadge, Woodridge, SVSM (I am sorry if I missed someone) all have very very good coaches who know what they are doing to these kids. Sadly other schools are at the mercy of these knuckle head coaches who are ignorant to thes #'s. I think the only way it will stop is to impose "set rules" on pitching just like little league. Why?? Because when people in authority can not police themselves then someone else must.

[HWCUSA]

Thanks everyone for the input!
I normally don't watch pitch counts (only for my own son) but this was really a crazy exception. If the coach was really paying attention and cared about this player, he would have noticed the squint in the pitchers eyes every time he threw a pitch. His arm would hang to his side when he left the end of each inning.
I think there should be a requirement for the opposing team to keep track of each others pitch count and then sign off after each game.
Don't they do that in the SWOL AABC here in Cincinnati (each coach sign off on the score/pitch count) after each game?

[Perry01]

No high school pitcher in April in my opinion should exceed 80-90 pitches. All some coaches are worried about is the W instead of the kid's arm.

[HWCUSA]

No high school pitcher in April in my opinion should exceed 80-90 pitches. All some coaches are worried about is the W instead of the kid's arm.

Yea, but this kid was never even in the game. Lost with scores of 32-0 and 18-2 (over 280 pitches in less than a week)? I can't see anything positive about that!

[OSUSTAR1991]

80 to 90 in Aprils is a good amount espically in Ohio with our crazy weather

[Small ball]

I always look at pitches per inning and proper rest along with total pitch count. I think a struggling pitcher is harder on his arm than one who is having a good day.

Two things I think coaches have to be willing to do are rest the kids well if you are going to run 90-100 pitch counts and listen to the kid if he says he is hurting or not recovering well from his last outing.

Kids are often eager to please the coach and will continue in pain or not tell the coach that the recovery is not going well. Kids too stubborn to reveal pain are just as bad as coaches/parents who don't care that a kid is hurting or not recovering from the last outing.

I would love to see OHSAA change from a maximum innings to a maximum pitch count with mandated rest based on the number of pitches thrown. The current rule of 10 innings in three days does little to require coaches to not overuse pitchers.


I think that a maximum pitch count is a great idea. It would save some kids that aren't being governed like the aforementioned boy that threw 150 pitches. That coach needs to have his head examined. What a knucklehead. A coach that lets that happen shouldn't be allowed to coach.

[thePITman]

I think it partially depends on the pitcher. We had a pitcher last year throw 143 pitches in a complete game win (3-1, I think) in April. He said he felt fine and could have pitched the second game of the double header. We did not take him out since he was on a roll in a very close game and had nobody else in whom we had confidence against the team we were facing. He is one of those pitchers that gets better as the game goes and never loses his (very good) velocity. He is the same way this year so far. Now, we are not about to have him throw 143 pitches again since we have more pitching depth in the bullpen that we trust in big games, but I still think it depends on the pitcher and how he has been preparing in the offseason, and how he truly takes care of himself after practices and games.

[itsa3]

I think it partially depends on the pitcher. We had a pitcher last year throw 143 pitches in a complete game win (3-1, I think) in April. He said he felt fine and could have pitched the second game of the double header. We did not take him out since he was on a roll in a very close game and had nobody else in whom we had confidence against the team we were facing. He is one of those pitchers that gets better as the game goes and never loses his (very good) velocity. He is the same way this year so far. Now, we are not about to have him throw 143 pitches again since we have more pitching depth in the bullpen that we trust in big games, but I still think it depends on the pitcher and how he has been preparing in the offseason, and how he truly takes care of himself after practices and games.

You sound like a coach. Sadly this is why HS coaches lose respect. Feeling fine today does not mean no damage is being done. PLEASE whoever you coach for talk to any sports orthopedist and ask him when the damage to young arms occurs and why these boys arms get ruined. It's the wear and tear of throwing too many pitches. It doesn't mean a thing what they did over the winter. Please just ask someone who deals with sports injuries. American College of Sports Medicine is a great start.

[thePITman]

You sound like a coach. Sadly this is why HS coaches lose respect. Feeling fine today does not mean no damage is being done. PLEASE whoever you coach for talk to any sports orthopedist and ask him when the damage to young arms occurs and why these boys arms get ruined. It's the wear and tear of throwing too many pitches. It doesn't mean a thing what they did over the winter. Please just ask someone who deals with sports injuries. American College of Sports Medicine is a great start.

I had no decision-making ability when this happened last year, as I am/was just an avid follower and supporter of the school. Having dealt with the school for so long, I know that the coaches, looking back, wish they would not have ridden the pitcher so long. They know they made a mistake. I also know the athletic trianer very well (was at the top of his class at OSU Med School), and he keeps a very close eye on the kids, no matter the sport or the situation. However, in their defense, I have followed this pitcher his whole way up through the ranks, and that has been his "trait", if you will - pitching all the time. In summer tournaments, he would be able to throw a half dozen games in a two week span, etc. Now, I agree with you that this may be his downfall later, if he chooses to pitch in college (or try to) because of his arm possibly being worn out. If it makes you feel any better, I don't think he nor anybody else on the team threw more than 100 pitches in an entire game that season, outside of the game in question.

[HWCUSA]

You sound like a coach. Sadly this is why HS coaches lose respect. Feeling fine today does not mean no damage is being done. PLEASE whoever you coach for talk to any sports orthopedist and ask him when the damage to young arms occurs and why these boys arms get ruined. It's the wear and tear of throwing too many pitches. It doesn't mean a thing what they did over the winter. Please just ask someone who deals with sports injuries. American College of Sports Medicine is a great start.

From what I've read and the orthopedist I talked to, you are completely correct on your post itsa3. Most of this is common sense after you research and learn the facts. I think the only reason this information (pitch count guidelines) is not implemented by coaches would have be, motives other than players health and well being. :shrug:

[tatertot]

PIT - He threw 143 pitches in a 3-1 win? How in the world did he only give up 1 run? He had to have walked the bases loaded every inning, and then struck out the rest?

Anyway, this is amazing to hear how people think about this increasingly important topic. I have seen way too many young kids 12-18 yrs old who have had tommy john surgery and this is a big part of the reason. Not to leave out, rotator cuff and labrum surgeries, which are just as serious if not more serious. Coaches need to be held accountable for this. I know kids will tell you they are fine when you ask them b/c they don't want to be called a quiter or let their team down but a coach has to make the, NOT SO TOUGH decision to take him out of the game. It may not be the popular thing at the time but they will thank you later on in life when they can throw with their own children and lift their arm above their heads without pain.

Anyone who think over 100 pitches is fine for these young kids every 5 days is ridiculous.:wallbang:

[thePITman]

PIT - He threw 143 pitches in a 3-1 win? How in the world did he only give up 1 run? He had to have walked the bases loaded every inning, and then struck out the rest?

When I read this, it got me thinking. So, I got out the calculator and played around a little bit.

21 outs * 6 pitches per at bat = 126 pitches
3 baserunners * 7 innings * 6 pitches per at bat for those baserunners = 126 pitches
(the above 252 pitches could occur with nobody scoring and with no 2-strike foul balls)

[itsa3]

I had no decision-making ability when this happened last year, as I am/was just an avid follower and supporter of the school. Having dealt with the school for so long, I know that the coaches, looking back, wish they would not have ridden the pitcher so long. They know they made a mistake. I also know the athletic trianer very well (was at the top of his class at OSU Med School), and he keeps a very close eye on the kids, no matter the sport or the situation. However, in their defense, I have followed this pitcher his whole way up through the ranks, and that has been his "trait", if you will - pitching all the time. In summer tournaments, he would be able to throw a half dozen games in a two week span, etc. Now, I agree with you that this may be his downfall later, if he chooses to pitch in college (or try to) because of his arm possibly being worn out. If it makes you feel any better, I don't think he nor anybody else on the team threw more than 100 pitches in an entire game that season, outside of the game in question.

I am happy that the trainer was top in his class but unfortunatley can you honestly say that any trainer can discuss "pulling a pitcher" because of pitch count? I am thankful for the players that no one else was put threw that that season. Traits of going too long lead to orthopedic surgeons making alot of money. I only hope for the kids it stops. Please keep mind this is NOT a opinion, it is factual, abuse hurts kids. But I'm glad it's ben cleaned up.

[BdawgsBB22]

I attended the woodridge JV game thursday,the opposing team had a pitcher throw 206 pitches into the 6th inning, you could tell he didnt want to be out there, i dont care what anyone says, after every pitch he was trying 2 stretch his arm, and holding it yet his coach didnt do anything till her threw 206 pitches. its sad a kid has to sit through all this, if i was his parent i would have came and took the kid out myself. its a JV game not even varsity and even at varsity the not expected out of any kid.

[SWO_Sports]

I attended the woodridge JV game thursday,the opposing team had a pitcher throw 206 pitches into the 6th inning, you could tell he didnt want to be out there, i dont care what anyone says, after every pitch he was trying 2 stretch his arm, and holding it yet his coach didnt do anything till her threw 206 pitches. its sad a kid has to sit through all this, if i was his parent i would have came and took the kid out myself. its a JV game not even varsity and even at varsity the not expected out of any kid.

Another example of why pitch counts need to be set and enforced, PERIOD.
The coaches need to know that repercussions will be paid if they abuse a kid and yes I said ABUSE! You can try and make any rational or argument you want to justify not taking these young pitchers out after a max of 100 pitches, there is none period. The doctors have the statistics/proof. Read the link below!

http://www.leaguetime.com/pt/League_Accounts/13/Forms/USA%20Baseball%20Statement%20pitching-risk.pdf

[kb-toyz2]

I don't think pitch count shoukld be that big of a concern unless thw kid is throwing a bunch of curve balls. I mean to strengthen your arm you have to throw and keep throwing or you will never build up any arm strength or stamina.

[IMHO]

I don't think pitch count shoukld be that big of a concern unless thw kid is throwing a bunch of curve balls. I mean to strengthen your arm you have to throw and keep throwing or you will never build up any arm strength or stamina.

Long tossing to build up arm strength and throwing pitches off a mound at maximum velocity are two different things.

[itsa3]

I don't think pitch count shoukld be that big of a concern unless thw kid is throwing a bunch of curve balls. I mean to strengthen your arm you have to throw and keep throwing or you will never build up any arm strength or stamina.

Throwing and ABUSE are two different animals. Again as I have said qa million times, PLEASE talk to anyone who knows pitching: American College of Sports Medicine, Kent State coaches, any scout, they will educate you very quickly. WARNING: Be prepared!

[BaseballRepresent]

Anything over 100-110 in a high school game is too much. The most a pitcher should have to throw is 110. Besides, if he is getting up into the 90's-110's and beyond, then he isn't being efficient. Therefore, pitching change. When a starting pitcher gets into the 80's, get the bullpen going.

[BaseballRepresent]

Long tossing to build up arm strength and throwing pitches off a mound at maximum velocity are two different things.

I don't think he was confusing anything. I think he's referring to arm maintenance via longthrowing in general, which i agree with. You need long toss if your a pitcher or you won't hit your max, plus it enables your elbow to be strengthened enough to where the wear and tear of curveballs won't affect it as much.

[HWCUSA]

Here's a link to another post about pitch counts on Yappi:
http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167419
By the way I started mine first but who cares, I'm just glad this issue is "out there". If reading either one of these threads keeps just one kid from messing up his arm then the topic was well worth the time!!