Choosing an English "Football" Team to Support

C

Chop Stix

Well-known member
England is the professional soccer capital of the world as it is home to the most exciting, most followed, and richest domestic soccer league, the English Premier League (EPL).

However, with there only being 20 teams in the EPL, (3 of which change every season due to promotion/relegation), one may decide to follow a team in a lower professional division, that has aspirations of reaching the glorious English Premier League one day.

The most popular example of such a team is Wrexham AFC, the widely-covered Welsh team owned by Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney that was recently promoted from the English 5th division (Vanarama National League) to the English 4th division (EFL League Two).

With soccer being the fastest growing (major) sport in the US, it is only natural for more Yappi members to express an increased interest in the game.

My goal is to provide information related to the English football leagues that has not been comprehensively shared anywhere else on the internet as I make direct comparisons to the NFL, NBA, NCAAF, and NCAAB, and other leagues/sports.

I have followed the top four professional divisions in England closely over the past 10 years and have attended competitive matches ranging from 2nd division (EFL Championship) all the way down to 10th division (semi-pro aka "nonleague").

I look forward to answering questions, sharing insights, and generating a stronger interest in the beautiful game among the Yappi community.
 
 
I know almost nothing about English soccer and how it works but I am becoming interested in Ipswich Town and finding out more about them. They have an Ohio connection with their majority ownership based out of Cleveland, OH.

So what can you tell me about them and where they "rate" in English soccer? Using analogies to professional and collegiate sports in America would be helpful.
 
I really like the national team events and have gotten into soccer through this path but still have not really caught on to the club thing yet. Maybe its because there are a lot of unique aspects that are very foreign to a US based sports fan that you can clear up and then I can ask about certain teams. I get promotion and relegation but give me a quick primer on the talent aspects:

  • Young Player Acquisition: Obviously there is no draft so how do you get young new players into the fold? Just sign guys off the practice pitch in the park? I have heard that kids as young as 14 get tied to a club through their academies, how does this process work?
  • Player Contracts: I assume no salary cap so what is the strategy for signing and keeping talent?
  • Transfers: Is this similar to a trade in US sports or is it more free agency like?
  • Player Loans: What's this all about? You let another team have one of your players but you technically own his rights?
Somewhat related, what is with all the growing foreign ownership in the EPL? Their valuations are solid but you have to go to #19 to finally find an EPL team in the Forbes most valuable sports franchise list:

www.forbes.com

The World’s 50 Most Valuable Sports Teams 2022

The National Football League extends its financial domination while Major League Baseball fades like a late-breaking slider.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

I mean the Buffalo Bills are worth more than Chelsea?!? How can it be that one of the top clubs in the EPL located in a huge city is behind a NFL franchise in a mid sized rust belt city?
 
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Yappi said:
I know almost nothing about English soccer and how it works but I am becoming interested in Ipswich Town and finding out more about them. They have an Ohio connection with their majority ownership based out of Cleveland, OH.

So what can you tell me about them and where they "rate" in English soccer? Using analogies to professional and collegiate sports in America would be helpful.
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Looks like Ipswich Town is getting promoted from the third tier (League One) to the second tier (Championship). Like going from AA to AAA in baseball (with the EPL being the major leagues).
 
Yappi said:
I know almost nothing about English soccer and how it works but I am becoming interested in Ipswich Town and finding out more about them. They have an Ohio connection with their majority ownership based out of Cleveland, OH.

So what can you tell me about them and where they "rate" in English soccer? Using analogies to professional and collegiate sports in America would be helpful.
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Ipswich Town would be a great club to support as they have a rich history and have a strong foundation in place to get back to the Premier League quicker than many other teams in the 2nd division.

Their geography is one of their greatest assets as there aren't any big cities/football clubs within an hour of them, which means they have very strong and loyal fanbase. They're one of the highest drawing clubs outside of the Premier League in the country.

Since getting relegated to the 3rd division in 2019, I would say they underachieved quite a bit, but they invested well and put everything together this season and performed phenomenally en route to promotion.

Their new ownership group seems to be very keen on keeping the club upwardly mobile. I wouldn't be surprised to see them have a season like Sunderland did this year where they compete for the Championship (promotion) play-offs immediately after getting promoted from League One.

There's so many dynamics to consider for analogies, but one that comes to mind is University of Memphis basketball. Both teams had rich histories followed by a prolonged lull during the 2010s and after a period of underachieving in smaller leagues/conferences, appear ready to take bigger steps forward with the support of their large local fanbases.
 
Auggie said:
I really like the national team events and have gotten into soccer through this path but still have not really caught on to the club thing yet. Maybe its because there are a lot of unique aspects that are very foreign to a US based sports fan that you can clear up and then I can ask about certain teams. I get promotion and relegation but give me a quick primer on the talent aspects:

  • Young Player Acquisition: Obviously there is no draft so how do you get young new players into the fold? Just sign guys off the practice pitch in the park? I have heard that kids as young as 14 get tied to a club through their academies, how does this process work?
  • Player Contracts: I assume no salary cap so what is the strategy for signing and keeping talent?
  • Transfers: Is this similar to a trade in US sports or is it more free agency like?
  • Player Loans: What's this all about? You let another team have one of your players but you technically own his rights?
Somewhat related, what is with all the growing foreign ownership in the EPL? Their valuations are solid but you have to go to #19 to finally find an EPL team in the Forbes most valuable sports franchise list:

www.forbes.com

The World’s 50 Most Valuable Sports Teams 2022

The National Football League extends its financial domination while Major League Baseball fades like a late-breaking slider.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

I mean the Buffalo Bills are worth more than Chelsea?!? How can it be that one of the top clubs in the EPL located in a huge city is behind a NFL franchise in a mid sized rust belt city?
Click to expand...

Great questions. I'll likely have to answer them one post at a time.

1) Young players most commonly break through professionally through one of two ways: by either progressing through a club's academy (where kids can sign and start playing when they're as young as 8 or 9), or once they're older (teenage years), playing in the first team of a nonleague/lower division club against other adults.

For younger kids, academies mimic "select/travel" soccer teams in the US. Kids live at home with their families and the families have to commit a lot of time and energy to traveling about to practices, matches, tournaments, etc. Once kids reach their teenage years, they can join host families in different cities (or even countries for that matter) and join a joint school/training program at an academy that is made to really accelerate their development. Recruitment to English football academies most closely mimics high school to NCAA recruitment in the US but serious recruitment efforts start much earlier in the UK. Kids sign 1-2-year contracts at academies and as they get older, can either renew their contract, leave and join new clubs by their own doing, or by get released by the club.

Sometimes the best young players end up at academies of "big" teams because they want to fulfill their dream of playing for that big team on the biggest stages. It's also common for players of a similar caliber to sign for much smaller clubs because they know that their path to playing first team football is much quicker. Would you rather have a 50% chance of playing regularly for a 3rd division team at 18 or a 5% chance of playing the odd game for Manchester United at age 21?

The logistics surrounding academies are vast. For example, major Premier League clubs might have dozens of players in their academy for a single age group, while a smaller professional club's academy may barely have enough to field a team for that same age group. However, it's likely that only 1-2 players in that academy's age group may progress to play for the club's first team. What happens to the rest of those players? Many get released and are forced to find new football homes. Many get phased out of the professional game completely after a few years.

Stories like the one told in this video are very common:

I got a personal tour of an English 2nd division team's academy by their director last August. The club wasn't that rich but invested a lot of money into their facilities/staff because they know that being able to develop their own players who will either help the first team win or be sold for a tidy profit down the line is the best way to financially sustain the club for the long term.
 
Wanted to break down the top 4 divisions in England for those who are completely new to the game:

First Division: English Premier League
  • 20 teams
    • 18-20th placed teams are relegated
    • 3 teams from the division below are promoted every season
  • 38 match season
  • Notable teams from 22/23 season: Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle, Liverpool, Everton
  • Top 4 teams (based on final regular season points total) qualify for Champions League (yearlong tournament featuring the best teams in all of Europe)
  • US equivalent: MLB/NHL/NBA/NFL/P5 NCAA Football/High Major NCAA Basketball
Second Division: EFL Championship
  • 24 teams
    • 22nd-24th placed teams are relegated
    • 1st and 2nd place teams receive automatic promotion
    • 3rd-6th placed teams enter promotion playoff
      • 3rd vs 6th & 4th vs 5th play two legs, home and away
        • Winners of the semi-finals face off at a winner take-all in Wembley Stadium (dubbed "the richest game in football")
  • 46 match season
  • Notable teams from 22/23 season: Burnley, Sheffield United, Sunderland, Norwich City, West Bromwich Albion, Swansea City, Watford, Stoke City
  • US equivalent: G5 NCAA Football/Mid Major NCAA Basketball
Third Division: EFL League One
  • 24 teams
    • 21st-24th placed teams are relegated
    • 1st and 2nd place teams receive automatic promotion
    • 3rd-6th placed teams enter promotion playoff
      • 3rd vs 6th & 4th vs 5th play two legs, home and away
        • Winners of the semi-finals face off at a winner take-all in Wembley Stadium
  • 46 match season
  • Notable teams from 22/23 season: Derby County, Bolton Wanderers, Ipswich Town, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Sheffield Wednesday, Plymouth Argyle, Peterborough
  • US equivalent: Top half FCS NCAA Football/Low Major D1 NCAA Basketball
Fourth Division: EFL League Two
  • 24 teams
    • 23rd & 24th placed teams are relegated
    • 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place teams receive automatic promotion
    • 4th-7th placed teams enter promotion playoff
      • 4th vs 7th & 5th vs 6th play two legs, home and away
        • Winners of the semi-finals face off at a winner take-all in Wembley Stadium
  • 46 match season
  • Notable teams from 22/23 season: Bradford City, AFC Wimbledon, Leyton Orient,
  • US equivalent: Lower half FCS NCAA Football/High level D2 NCAA Basketball
Do teams from different divisions ever play each other?

I'll answer that in another post soon.
 
English Premier League
  • 20 teams
Has it always been this number?

Also with UEFA expanding the Champions League will the EPL get another side in? In my US biased mind I would take a Champions League title over 1st place in the EPL all the time.
 
Auggie said:
English Premier League
  • 20 teams
Has it always been this number?

Also with UEFA expanding the Champions League will the EPL get another side in? In my US biased mind I would take a Champions League title over 1st place in the EPL all the time.
Click to expand...

Just since 1995 (reduced from 22).

As for the UCL expansion, that will start in 24/25. It seems likely that, based on the new criteria, the EPL will regularly get a 5th team in but it won't be guaranteed on a yearly basis.
 
Decades ago now, I barely had access to any European football but aligned myself with Nottingham Forest knowing virtually nothing about them other than I liked the name. They were immediately demoted from the very beginning of the English Premier League but just finally were promoted for this season and are struggling to stay afloat for next year.

Historically, they had a huge run in the 70s where they were champions of Europe. Had maybe one of the more notable coaches (Brian Clough) of that era who had a rather ... colorful career. After leaving NFFC, his stop at Leeds United was turned into a movie that's how badly it went before returning to NFFC (The Damned United, go watch it, it's a good movie, a 7.5 of 10 on IMDB).

They play at City Ground in Nottingham:

_121184474_gettyimages-656718056.jpg


Their biggest historical (though not sporting) rival is Notts County, whose stadium is just across the river from theirs in Nottingham. City Ground is technically in West Bridgford but like the US, postal code is that of Nottingham.

Screenshot 2023-05-12 191819.png
 
20 years ago my family bought the big sports channel package for DirecTV that came with Fox Sports World (would become Fox Soccer Channel). Turned it on one day to see Everton playing Chelsea. I was immediately hooked. It was a much more fast-paced game than I had seen from soccer before and the crowd involvement I thought was incredible. I believe Everton won but I found myself rooting for Chelsea, and I have since.
 
Does soccer have a season? It seems like there's always a friendly, a professional matchup, all star game, then throw in the World Cup (every 4 years?) I can't say that I am all that interested in it, but the logistics are puzzling to me. Other professional leagues can essentially purchase players through transfer fees, such as the transfer of Cucho to the Crew. And there's always some team in Saudi Arabia that seems to be willing to pay the best players big money. Are these like trades that take place in our professional sports? Does the player have any say in transfers. I can't imagine it would be very fun to be purchased by another professional club in a different country, then adjusting to that country's league.
 
LCL said:
Does soccer have a season? It seems like there's always a friendly, a professional matchup, all star game, then throw in the World Cup (every 4 years?) I can't say that I am all that interested in it, but the logistics are puzzling to me.
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Leagues do. But they're long. European leagues tend to run from end of summer to the end of spring. MLS runs from end of February to end of October.

Most leagues are between 30 and 46 games.

The other games you're seeing in their off seasons are national team games and other club tournaments.

In the US, an MLS team will participate in the Open Cup which is single elimination tournament with every USSF affiliated team.

Also there's CONCACAF which is the association under FIFA that covers North America and the Caribbean. The Champions League takes the best teams from MLS, Canada, Mexico and other nations and has a tournament for confederation champions. Then the winner of the confederations play for a world championship under FIFA.

The friendlies are just exhibition games. Usually played by European teams as a warm up to their season. They travel around the world and then also play games against local teams. It's just that MLS is in regular season so it's a mid season exhibition game.

National teams are an entirely different thing. Fixture congestion is a constant complaint annually.
LCL said:
Other professional leagues can essentially purchase players through transfer fees, such as the transfer of Cucho to the Crew. And there's always some team in Saudi Arabia that seems to be willing to pay the best players big money. Are these like trades that take place in our professional sports? Does the player have any say in transfers. I can't imagine it would be very fun to be purchased by another professional club in a different country, then adjusting to that country's league.
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Yes, players have say. The transfer fee goes to the club that owns the contract. A new contract is then signed by the new team with the player. Loans are just that. Players a team signs but can't play and want them to get playing time to develop so they loan them to lower teams or teams in other countries.

One of the main ways smaller leagues make money is by developing players and selling them to major teams. And taking their loans where they get free players for their team without spending the money.
 
Nottingham Forest beat Arsenal, 1-0 today to ensure they are in the Premiership next season.

For most teams that are promoted, the major focus is to just stay up after their first year. Then work on building and improving over time.
 
I’m a casual “observer” to use the English term of the EPL. It’s nice to have sports on early in the morning, especially before college and pro football start. My next door neighbor is from Manchester (United fan) and is constantly explaining how it all works. Logistically it sounds like a nightmare to me, but he breaks it down and it makes sense. I am still confused how they can play a regular season game and then two days later be off playing a team from another country in the Champions league. I’d think it would throw you off.

My team is NewCastle. Like the unis and love the beer. I don’t go out of my way to watch them but I do read up on them.
 
JackEd said:
I’m a casual “observer” to use the English term of the EPL. It’s nice to have sports on early in the morning, especially before college and pro football start. My next door neighbor is from Manchester (United fan) and is constantly explaining how it all works. Logistically it sounds like a nightmare to me, but he breaks it down and it makes sense. I am still confused how they can play a regular season game and then two days later be off playing a team from another country in the Champions league. I’d think it would throw you off.

My team is NewCastle. Like the unis and love the beer. I don’t go out of my way to watch them but I do read up on them.
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Yeah, in soccer it's only about a 2 day rest to turn around and play another game. There's also not 'in-season' and 'off-season' conditioning for soccer. It's year-round pretty much the same. With just more emphasis before things like a World Cup or leading up to the start of the league season. But the idea of mixing two different competitions happening overlapping one another. To me, it's similar to college football prior to playoffs or BCS. You had your conference games and your conference was what you played for, but then you might have a non-conference opponent just sandwiched in the middle due to scheduling. Yet that game has nothing to do with your attempt to win your conference. Bowl games would be similar to European teams (and pretty much every confederation) qualifying for Champions League/UEFA Cup/Europa League, etc. Only just one game at the time.

Newcastle had a great season this year. Best in a long time. I remember when they had big issues with their management and fans were revolting against them. Dropped and came back up. Reminded me a lot of Aston Villa.
 
The one thing that's a tad annoying is that attendance against cost is a big difference.

Nottingham Forest for 2023/24 season have 'season passes (like season tickets)' with the highest prices equal to about £35 per game, the cheapest at £25 per game. They also have youth (12-19) anywhere in the stadium at £190 for the season (£20 per game). Child passes are £90 for the season (£4.77 per game).

MLS has no youth prices. The worst team in the league not named LA Galaxy (man, that would be a shock to say a decade ago) is the Colorado Rapids, whose non-club season tickets range from $19 to $97 per ticket. MLS teams play 17 home games.

So, adjusting for currency, Nottingham Forest who barely staved off relegation, are between $31.26 USD and $43.90 USD. Yeah, their bottom prices are higher, but they have kids season tickets between $5.98 USD and $25.09 USD per game.

$5.98 to $43.90 for regular stadium seating, not any clubs or luxury seats. Colorado is $19-$97.

At the other end, regular seats for Manchester City (champions of the Premier League), Manchester City's prices (for adults) range from £385 to £1030 (£20.26/gm to £54.20). 18-21 year olds can get season tickets from £320 to £690 (£16.84 to £36.31). 0-17 year olds can get season tickets from £110 to £330 (£5.79/gm to £17.37/gm). Elderly (65+) can get season tickets between £305 and £510 while disabled ticket holders can get season passes between £320 and £690.

LAFC, defending champions of MLS, don't even have season ticket pricing up on their site. Just a link to submit a deposit for 2024 season tickets. The regular season is sold out of all tickets (yeah, much smaller stadium than Man City, but still). Best I could find was a chart showing all premium seating sold out. Regular season tickets were between $28/gm to $155/gm. No age options. And that was before the team started playing. They're defending champs now. Trying to find info midseason about the 2023 season is a bit difficult. I did find that renewal deposits were between $100 and $300 per ticket just for the deposit to get in the list for tickets in 2023.

For the Crew, Nordecke tickets are sold out, and a few of the highest premium seats are sold out. But best I can tell is that the best regular seats in the seating bowl (not the field seats) are $301/game. Cheapest non-Nordecke seats are $32/game.

MLS has purpose built their stadiums small because demand wasn't great, and now demand in many markets is ridiculously high. Nashville's stadium seats over 30k. Charlotte might not move out of Bank of America Stadium where the Panthers play. Just as Atlanta and Seattle continue to be happy playing a co-tenants of their co-owned NFL brethren. New England keeps toying with the idea of building a stadium in Boston but will probably stay stuck in the middle of nowhere between Boston and Providence.


And in case you're curious, highest priced premium seats at Man City are £1440 a year, about £75.79 a game. Or $95/game. Columbus is $301 at the highest still available (there's a few levels above that that are sold out and no longer listed with prices).

So, yeah.
 
MLS doesn't make nearly as much from media rights and merch as big European leagues. That's the real gap. It's a gate-driven league and likely will remain so indefinitely. Same reason NHL tickets are ridiculously expensive.
 
Crusaders said:
MLS doesn't make nearly as much from media rights and merch as big European leagues. That's the real gap. It's a gate-driven league and likely will remain so indefinitely. Same reason NHL tickets are ridiculously expensive.
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Yes. But also EPL gets a ton of money from overseas contracts in addition to their English based deals.
 
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